Boys play nice, or you both will have to take a time out. Mike
Yes, Warsovians are quite belligerent people. Natural born fighters/warriors. We, Krakovians, are peaceful and complacent. Natural born lazy bones. Hence, differences of opinions.
Rising was - a tragic mistake caused by the ambitions of one irresponsible man.
or that others correctly claim that
„Chcieliśmy być wolni i wolność sobie zawdzięczać”, to słowa Delegata Rządu RP na Kraj, a jednocześnie wicepremiera, Jana Stanisława Jankowskiego „Sobola”. W tym jednym zdaniu zawiera on całą, złożoną prawdę o pięciu latach okupacji w Polsce i dwóch miesiącach Powstania Warszawskiego. Powstanie nie jest bowiem nierozumnym, romantycznym zrywem garstki szaleńców, lecz świadomą, choć tragiczną, decyzją polityczną najwyższych, w pełni legalnych władz Polski. Polacy, po doświadczeniach dwóch okrutnych okupacji – niemieckiej i sowieckiej – doskonale zdają sobie sprawę, jaki cel przyświeca Sowietom. Wiedzą, że zbliżająca się od wschodu Armia Czerwona walczy nie po to, aby Polskę uwolnić, ale by zamienić totalitaryzm nazistowski na własny, komunistyczny. Powstanie Warszawskie, którego celem jest wyzwolenie stolicy polskimi siłami i powitanie wojsk sowieckich w roli gospodarza, jest ostatnią próbą uratowania Polski przed zniewoleniem.
btw, sorry about Polish but Bo , let's get real, noone apart from us is interested in the matter anymore, all was said, no reaction, apart from silly ones, our discussion is just what it is, our, between You and me.
So, the problem is not about how you see the Uprising. The problem is about if you can understand this absolute, complete majority of Poles which think as quoted above. If your read , for instance Kinderszenen, by Rymkiewicz, born 1935, or listen to Hemp Gru, born 1977
you will get the idea how what you see as a scandal, so many see otherwise.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 158 Location: Little Poland
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #62 on Feb 12, 2010, 10:43pm »
Urpising of Warsaw is heroical act. Rebels fighted for Poland. They did one`s best in fighting. We must show respect for their. Thye lost- sorry, it is life. But they tryed doing good job. Poland must remember heros. Do rebeles graves visit by Warsaw people?
you will see and you will not believe your eyes what you see.
If you come on 1th August, or All Saints in November , also ouside the graveyards the signs of rembrance is, well toput it midly, difficult to overlook.. Further, there are a lot of memorial plates in the city, every spot where Germans killed innocent people has a plaque. Rarely they are without a candle or fresh flowers.
Bo, the problem is not wether you erronously claim that Rising was - a tragic mistake caused by the ambitions of one irresponsible man.
It is not erroneous. It is truth. Tragic truth.
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or that others correctly claim that
„Chcieliśmy być wolni i wolność sobie zawdzięczać”, to słowa Delegata Rządu RP na Kraj, a jednocześnie wicepremiera, Jana Stanisława Jankowskiego „Sobola”. W tym jednym zdaniu zawiera on całą, złożoną prawdę o pięciu latach okupacji w Polsce i dwóch miesiącach Powstania Warszawskiego. Powstanie nie jest bowiem nierozumnym, romantycznym zrywem garstki szaleńców, lecz świadomą, choć tragiczną, decyzją polityczną najwyższych, w pełni legalnych władz Polski. Polacy, po doświadczeniach dwóch okrutnych okupacji – niemieckiej i sowieckiej – doskonale zdają sobie sprawę, jaki cel przyświeca Sowietom. Wiedzą, że zbliżająca się od wschodu Armia Czerwona walczy nie po to, aby Polskę uwolnić, ale by zamienić totalitaryzm nazistowski na własny, komunistyczny. Powstanie Warszawskie, którego celem jest wyzwolenie stolicy polskimi siłami i powitanie wojsk sowieckich w roli gospodarza, jest ostatnią próbą uratowania Polski przed zniewoleniem.
Nope, it is again this Polish infantile attitude to life. One had to be really mindless and blind to believe that even a won Rising could save Poland from Soviet domination in those circumstances. After Katyn Massacre had been hushed down by Allies in 1943 and Poles had been told to shut up, didn`t Polish politicians realise that the case was lost and there was no need for stupid heroism because it was completely senseless????
But no, the Polish government in exile practised the same wishful thinking as underground leaders in occupied Warsaw. The former practised political fiction wishful thinking, believing that insurgents` victory could prevent Soviets from taking Poland over, while the latter practised military fiction wishful thinking, believing they were able to defeat Germans in the battle of Warsaw.
Pity that Warsaw had to pay such a price for unrealistic beliefs.
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btw, sorry about Polish but Bo , let's get real, noone apart from us is interested in the matter anymore, all was said, no reaction, apart from silly ones, our discussion is just what it is, our, between You and me.
I don`t care who is interested in it or not. I come back to the topic regularly because it is one of my painful sores that I can`t get rid of from my mind.
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So, the problem is not about how you see the Uprising. The problem is about if you can understand this absolute, complete majority of Poles which think as quoted above. If your read , for instance Kinderszenen, by Rymkiewicz, born 1935,
Please, no. Not Rymkiewicz again. That pathos of him is really unbearable. I prefer to listen to Doda than read him.
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you will get the idea how what you see as a scandal, so many see otherwise.
How many? Do you know the statistics? I wouldn`t be so sure.....
I come back to the topic regularly because it is one of my painful sores that I can`t get rid of from my mind.
Yes, I understand that. You can't get rid of it from your mind, because you think it was a sensless fight. I was trying to help you in finding the way HOW and WHY many people think otherwise. I don't really care if you think that or other way, but I saw you suffering. I have pointed to several sources which may help you in your intellectual and emotional quest. Mostly emotional. You refute them and in a compulsory-perseverative manner you choose to cry over the poor Polish people character again and again.
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Please, no. Not Rymkiewicz again. That pathos of him is really unbearable. I prefer to listen to Doda than read him.
Rymkiewicz and pathos? You have probable mistaken him with somebody else.
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How many? Do you know the statistics? I wouldn`t be so sure.....
It's not important how many. Knowledge, truth is not vote-able. It was a joke - since we both don't know how many.
General Bór-Komorowski, a heroical, wise, much above average wise, and his officers, they all didn't know how the Warsaw Uprising would end up. But what they new, just as cream of the cream of Polish intelligentsia which actively took part in the uprising knew as well, was that without the uprsing there will be Poland no more. I assure you, they were not a bunch of fools. If Poles were to remain Polish they had to do what they did. The alternaive was to quit living as Poles. They would have to agree to lead a pathetic life on the margin of Great Germany or Great Russia.
The communist during forty years of their reign were telling the Poles otherwise. That they should be a 'sensible nation' and behave humbly, that they should be happy with what they are given as 'the circumstances' are what they are. In other words – that they should be a nation of sheep. Or clots. They were telling that the Poles instead of behaving in an infantile manner, should agree to live in partial liberty as a part of Great Russia, as nothing can be changed. To achieve their aims the communists have falsified the history. But they did not menage to falsify the history of Warsaw Uprising, although they tried to falsify it the most. The more they were trying to present it as a romantic, sensless act, the more visible was the truth – the uprising was a genuine t 'act of independance' of modern Poland. Without it there'd be no Poland as she is today. Proud, modern country of European civilization. So, sorry Bo, but long live New Hampshire!
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 11,454 Location: Krak`s Town, Lesser Poland
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #66 on Feb 17, 2010, 12:26am »
Sorry for keeping you waiting.
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You can't get rid of it from your mind, because you think it was a sensless fight. I was trying to help you in finding the way HOW and WHY many people think otherwise.
It doesn`t really matter because all those people are Polish and as such are positively biased about the Rising.
I am not like them. I am able to give up my Polish upbringing, patriotism, soul for a while and look rationally at the Rising. What I see is romantically senseless, unprepared fight which ended with a massacre.
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I don't really care if you think that or other way, but I saw you suffering. I have pointed to several sources which may help you in your intellectual and emotional quest. Mostly emotional. You refute them and in a compulsory-perseverative manner you choose to cry over the poor Polish people character again and again.
Yes. I am stuck on it and nothing can be done here. I will critisize stupid irresponsible generals who gave orders till the end of my days.
And I will praise the heroism of individual insurgents who, on murderous orders from their mad generals, went to battle against tanks and diving bombers armed with a few pistols and Molotov cocktails.
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Rymkiewicz and pathos? You have probable mistaken him with somebody else.
Never mind. This or another, what`s the difference?
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General Bór-Komorowski, a heroical, wise, much above average wise, and his officers,
Tufta, it is against facts.
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they all didn't know how the Warsaw Uprising would end up.
So they WERE stupid, indeed. A general who throws an army of young men, 10% of whom is armed, against powerful German war machine, and still believes in victory, must be out of his mind.
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But what they new, just as cream of the cream of Polish intelligentsia which actively took part in the uprising knew as well, was that without the uprsing there will be Poland no more.
That is the Polish pathos I cannot bear.
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I assure you, they were not a bunch of fools. If Poles were to remain Polish they had to do what they did. The alternaive was to quit living as Poles. They would have to agree to lead a pathetic life on the margin of Great Germany or Great Russia.
We lived on the margin for 50 years after the war. Did we perish? Solidarity movement in 1980s proved that the nation`s spirit survived.
Tufta, you don`t have to start Risings in order to keep the spirit. Letting enemy kill you in an unequal fight is quite a silly act. It is enough to retain values and wait for the right moment. Just like it happened in 1918 or in 1989 when foreing powers occupying Poland crumbled down under the internal and external pressure.
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The communist during forty years of their reign were telling the Poles otherwise. That they should be a 'sensible nation' and behave humbly, that they should be happy with what they are given as 'the circumstances' are what they are. In other words – that they should be a nation of sheep.
I prefer to see it as patient waiting for a chance.
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Or clots. They were telling that the Poles instead of behaving in an infantile manner, should agree to live in partial liberty as a part of Great Russia, as nothing can be changed.
Nothing could be changed when the Soviet Union was powerful, from 1945 to mid 1980s. Face the reality as it was till 1989.
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To achieve their aims the communists have falsified the history. But they did not menage to falsify the history of Warsaw Uprising, although they tried to falsify it the most. The more they were trying to present it as a romantic, sensless act, the more visible was the truth – the uprising was a genuine t 'act of independance' of modern Poland.
Thank you for such acts. A few more like them and there wouldnt` be Poland and Poles at all.
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Without it there'd be no Poland as she is today. Proud, modern country of European civilization.
Our views differ substantially here. I claim that the Rising was a backward move from civilisation and modernity. Destroyed city, its inhabitans, the flower of the nation - executed. Don`t you realise that the lost Rising helped Russians take complete control of Poland?
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So, sorry Bo, but long live New Hampshire!
I don`t agree. Losing life is the easiest but also the stupidest solution of all.
Waiting for the right moment, keeping faith and national values, and educating young generations, so that they can fullfil our aspirations if we can`t - are more challenging and prove the nation`s strong spirit more powerfully than lost Risings.
You quoted Polish text, here is mine, my fav: [i] Adam Asnyk
Miejcie nadzieję!... Nie tę lichą, marną Co rdzeń spróchniały w wątły kwiat ubiera, Lecz tę niezłomną, która tkwi jak ziarno Przyszłych poświęceń w duszy bohatera.
Miejcie odwagę!... Nie tę jednodniową, Co w rozpaczliwym przedsięwzięciu pryska, Lecz tę, co wiecznie z podniesioną głową Nie da się zepchnąć ze swego stanowiska.
Miejcie odwagę... Nie tę tchnącą szałem, która na oślep leci bez oręża, Lecz tę, co sama niezdobytym wałem Przeciwne losy stałością zwycięża.
Przestańmy własną pieścić się boleścią, Przestańmy ciągłym lamentem się poić: Kochać się w skargach jest rzeczą niewieścią, Mężom przystało w milczeniu się zbroić...
Lecz nie przestajmy czcić świętości swoje I przechowywać ideałów czystość; Do nas należy dać im moc i zbroję, By z kraju marzeń przeszły w rzeczywistość
A nice metal song about the Rising by a Swedish group Sabaton. The films used as illustration are really worth watching.
With English lyrics.
At 2:36 - a boy fighter.
Warsaw Rise! Do you remember when, when the nazis forced their rule on Poland 1939 and the allies turned away From the underground rose a hope of freedom as a whisper City in despair, but they never lost their faith Women, men and children fight they were dying side by side And the blood they shed upon the streets was a sacrifice willingly paid
Warsaw, city at war Voices from underground whispers of freedom 1944 help that never came calling Warsaw city at war Voices from underground whispers of freedom Rise up and hear the call history calling to you Warszawo walcz!
Spirit, soul and heart in accordance with the old traditions 1944 still the allies turn away Fighting street to street in a time of hope and desperation Did it on their own and they never lost their faith All the streetlights in the city broken many years ago Break the curfew, hide in sewers Warsaw it's time to rise now
The official video released by the group with reconstructed events:
Other films A few minutes before the Rising, insurgents are getting ready:
Execution scene of insurgents, film Canal.
I am not sure if I already showed the film of the Rising capitulation.
Oh my God, I feel like crying. The people who gave orders should be brought and tried before court martial, instead of having streets named after them. What injustice! Who is going to name a street after all the victims of Warsaw Rising? Is there a single street in Poland named after 200 thousand Warsavians who died in executions, bombardment, death and concentration camps?
A nice interview, but he, not being a historian, tends to believe in and repeat certain myths about the Rising.
On the opposite, Bo. He is trying to break some communist-origined myths and stereotypes about the uprsing. These were sown so deep that even some otherwise patriotic and 'engaged' Poles got caught and started to believe and repeat them.
yaaaaaaawn......
The main myth about the Rising:
1. We fought for two months and managed to hold our positions.
Yes, it was two months but why?
Let me quote a passage from a book in my library entitled The Use of Armour in the Rising.
[....] In the final stage of the Rising Germans introduced massive tank force. It was caused by the situation on the front - after Russians took the right-side district of Praga, Germans decided to crush the Rising quickly. The stabilised front allowed them to move a few armoured units into Warsaw. Fierce attacks of grenadiers, backed with tanks, resulted in quick progress across insurgents` lines.
[...] Żoliborz capitulated on 30 September.
Fighting in Mokotów and Żoliborz prove that hardened front units, backed with armour and artillery, were able to make short work of insurgents` defences. At the beginning of the Rising, Germans used low morale/quality troops in Warsaw, that is why the fight was prolonged and unsuccessful for them.
What does it mean? The Rising lasted so long because Germans didn`t consider it so important at the beginning, that is why they used "police" force to stiffle the resistance. The "police" units were worthless, more interested in looting, raping and executing civilians than fighting AK soldiers.
But when front soldiers arrived, the insurgents had no chance to maintain their positions.
How could the Rising leaders make such erroneous judgment about their own strength and Germans` strength?
It is really unbelievable to me. Typical Polish bravado. The problem is that Warsaw residents had to pay for that. And that`s what I will never forget - the fate of simple people, robbed, looted, raped and murdered by German animals and their renegade Russian allies. But that should have been predicted by Okulicki, Komorowski and others. I
... now it's time of waiting, incubating the ideas.
In some 10 years you will be with me, just as 10 years ago I was with you. I know it sounds like ageism a rebour, please don't mind it, I do respect your views, life stance and so on irrespective if you are 20 or 80. But I am just saying what i do believe - you will be where I am in 10 years, or maybe even quicker because you are brighter
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The main myth about the Rising:
1. We fought for two months and managed to hold our positions.
This is the myth conctructed by propaganda aimed at ridiculing Polish effort to defend our own liberty. It was conctructed in a typical way orf mixing the false with the truth. That sole aim of constructing the myth was to be able to deconstruct it
The truth is "we fought two months and managed to engage large enemy forces". To confirm this truth let me quote a passage from a book in your library entitled The Use of Armour in the Rising.
[i] In the final stage of the Rising Germans introduced massive tank force. It was caused by the situation on the front - after Russians took the right-side district of Praga, Germans decided to crush the Rising quickly. The stabilised front allowed them to move a few armoured units into Warsaw. Fierce attacks of grenadiers, backed with tanks, resulted in quick progress across insurgents` lines.
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Germans didn`t consider it so important at the beginning,
This was the strenght of the uprising. It would be headless, erroneous, bravado to attack a formal, well organized army. Yet the leader did make a mistake. Machulski also talks about it -
Nazbyt często prowadzi się dyskusję o powstaniu w ahistoryczny sposób. Zapominamy, że przed jego wybuchem konspiracyjna młodzież przez pięć lat podchorążówki szkoliła się na żołnierzy, żeby walczyć z hitlerowcami. Przepraszam – z Niemcami: nie znano wtedy słowa „hitlerowcy”. Nie było błędem myślenie, że pomogą nam Rosjanie – wszyscy wiedzieli, że tak się nie stanie. Największą pomyłką stała się nietrafiona diagnoza stanu niemieckiej armii. Dziś łatwo o tym mówić, ale w lipcu 1944 roku warszawiacy widzieli rozbite przez Rosjan niemieckie dywizje. Szły przez stolicę w fatalnym stanie, żołnierze często nie mieli butów. Pamiętajmy, że w czerwcu w Normandii wylądowali alianci, w lipcu zorganizowano zamach na Hitlera. Były wszelkie powody, by myśleć, że III Rzesza jest pobita. Oczywiście, plan „Burza” nie zakładał, że Warszawa będzie miejscem działań wojennych. Ale ostatecznie generał Kazimierz Sosnkowski, naczelny wódz Polskich Sił Zbrojnych, pozostawił dowódcom AK w stolicy wolną rękę. Niestety, 31 lipca 1944 roku nastąpił gwałtowny zwrot wydarzeń. Niemcy przeprowadzili antyrosyjską kontrofensywę. Jednak lawina została uruchomiona, kamienie zaczęły się toczyć. Kierownictwo AK popełniło błąd, ale nie ono pierwsze. Alianci, kierowani przez tak doświadczonych dowódców jak Eisenhower i Montgomery, przegrali w podobnych okolicznościach bitwę o Arnhem.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 11,454 Location: Krak`s Town, Lesser Poland
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #71 on Dec 22, 2010, 10:49pm »
Codename Ali: Nigerian jazzman fought for Poland in Warsaw Rising 16.12.2010 11:08
August Agbola O’ Brown
In the week that Poland’s first black MP was sworn in to parliament, a new history book tells the story of a Nigerian-born musician who fought for Poland in the WW II Warsaw Rising.
Story by Nick Hodge
As detailed in a new book published by the Foundation Afryka Inaczej (Another Side of Africa), Poland’s WW II underground army boasted a hitherto forgotten black soldier in her ranks.
August Agbola O’ Brown, codename Ali, was a jazzman on the capital’s prewar musical scene. In 1944, he fought in the Warsaw Rising against the Nazi occupants. By then he had already married a Pole, by whom he had two children: Ryszard and Aleksandra.
From Nigeria to Warsaw
The legacy of August O’ Brown seemed almost completely consigned to oblivion, even amongst specialists of Poland’s complex web of partisan warfare. However, the trail was picked up by Dr. Zbigniew Osinski, currently an archivist at the Museum of the Warsaw Rising.
He has revealed a charismatic figure who was ‘completely assimilated’ in the life of the pre-war capital, and who regarded Poland as “his second motherland”.
August O’Brown was born in Nigeria in 1895, the son of Wallace and Josephine O’Brown. A musician by profession, he came to Poland in 1922, having previously spent some time in England and the free city of Gdansk.
Settling in Warsaw at ul. Zlota, O’ Brown swiftly found work amidst the city’s cosmopolitan music scene. He married, and his first child was born in May 1928. A percussionist, O’ Brown was a regular performer in Warsaw’s fashionable venues, as remembered by photographer Andrzej Zborski in an interview with Jazz Magazine:
“He regaled everyone that he was a polyglot and knew five languages. Right before the war I met him quite often out and about on the streets… I remember him as a strappingly handsome, exceptionally elegant fellow. He wore light-coloured suits and vibrant ties… and yes, always with a suitable hat of course… Without question he was an intelligent and quick-witted man,” said Zborski.
Warsaw insurgent
In September 1939, O’ Browne took part in the defence of Warsaw, which bore the brunt of the Nazi bombing campaign. Later we find him as a distributor of clandestine press for Poland’s underground forces. However, it was in 1944 that the musician was drawn into a head-on clash with the occupying regime.
The Warsaw Rising, a three-month battle waged by a non-professional army that was effectively loyal to the Polish government-in-exile in London, remains one of the most controversial clashes of the war.
Alternately described as a courageous bid to cast off the Nazi shackles and a reckless throw of the dice that was doomed from day one, it briefly created the illusion of a free Poland, before a second totalitarian state took up the reins.
According to Dr. Osinski, O’ Brown, codenamed ‘Ali’, fought with Battalion ‘Iwo’ in central Warsaw. His commanding officer was Corporal Aleksander Marcinczyk, codenamed ‘Swan’.
The conflict resulted in over 300,000 casualties, largely civilians. After the surrender, Hitler ordered the city to be dynamited, block by block. In January 1945, the Red Army, which had been loitering on the outskirts of the city, marched into Warsaw. It was a watershed moment for the installation of the communist regime.
Postwar mystery
Ali survived the Rising, and by the late forties, it appears that he had begun to play in Warsaw venues again. However, the period 1948-1956, generally accepted as the most repressive era of the Communist regime, was a far cry from the world of opportunity that O’ Brown had known in prewar Warsaw.
After the so-called thaw of 1956, Ali, like many Polish citizens, emigrated with his family. Dr Osinski holds that the O’ Browns sailed for Great Britain, but as of yet, no further information has been found about their plight. (pg)
Sources: Quotes from Chapter 8 of the book Afryka w Warszawie (2010), edited by Pawel Sredzinski and Mamadou Dioufa, published by Fundacja Afryka Inaczej, www.afryka.org, Gazeta Wyborcza.
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