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Post by Bonobo on Apr 1, 2008 23:01:22 GMT 1
Facts, in short. Germans seemed weak in summer 1944, they retreated through Warsaw on horse carts, broken, tired and scared shitless after a relentless Soviet offensive which reached the city on the right side of the Wis³a River. Warsawians and underground resistance couldn`t believe their eyes - the German army dispersed and in retreat. Everybody (except for a few sceptics) believed that it was possible to throw Germans out of the city after a few day fighting and welcome the entering Soviets in the Polish capital by the Polish independent government. That was a major mistake. Germans weren`t so weak as they seemed, what is more, they still fought on all fronts with incredible fanaticism. Fighting broke on 1 August. A few dozen thousand resistant soldiers (mainly from AK but other resistant groups joined too) were armed in light weapons, and only 10% of them were armed at all. Despite that, and due to unbelievable heroism and bravery, Poles managed to liberate most parts of the left bank districts. However, major points like Okêcie Airport or bridges across the river were not taken by insurgents. Enthusiastic residents of Warsaw joined the Rising unanimously - they provided fighters with food and water, built barricades, corridors through houses, prepared equipment for fighting fires etc. After 5 years of brutal occupation during which 600.000 Warsawians lost their lives (including 350.000 Jews), Warsaw was Polish again! Children joined too. Maybe not so many as the popular myth about kid fighters goes, but there were as young as 12 year old insurgents. KIA of the Rising After initial successes, the situation got worse. Germans brought a few police units, most of them consisted of various scumbags (criminals) or collaborators from the East. Instead of fighting insurgents, they went on a murdering spree - in Wola district, about 50.000 Polish civilians were executed in early August, in Ochota - about 10.000. Mokotów - a few thousand. And in many other places all over Warsaw. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacreen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochota_massacrepl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacyfikacja_Mokotowa Kaminski volunteers were first given the task of clearing the Ochota district defended by only 300 poorly-armed Poles. Their attack was planned for the morning of August 5, but when the time came, Kaminski's men could not be found. After some searching, they were found looting abandoned houses in the rear. The attack finally got underway shortly before noon and it went poorly, with the brigade advancing only 275 meters before nightfall. The men had neither training for nor prior experience in urban combat. For many it was the first time they had even seen a major city and they fought poorly while suffering high casualties. At the same time, thousands of Polish civilians were killed by the RONA SS men during the events known as the Ochota massacre; many of the victims were also raped. In the middle of the month, the Kaminski was moved south to the Wola sector, but it fared no better in combat there than in Ochota. In one incident, a sub-unit had stopped their advance to loot a captured building on the front line and was consequently cut off and destroyed by the Poles. By August 27, the German commanders decided the brigade was too undisciplined and unreliable. In almost a month of fighting, the brigade had still not achieved any of its major objectives. The German commander in Warsaw, SS-Obergruppenführer Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, stated in post war trials that the unit "had no military combat value whatsoever, with both officers and soldiers having not even a hint of tactical understanding. "I saw Kaminski's men removing entire cartloads of stolen jewelery, gold watches, and precious stones. The capture of a liquor supply was more important for the brigade than the seizure of a position commanding the same street. Each assault was instantly stopped, because after taking the objective over, units dispersed into loose, plundering hordes." Kaminski himself was involved in the looting in Warsaw, claiming he was collecting for his "Russian Liberation Fund". Major General Günter Rohr, commander of Warsaw's southern sector, demanded that the brigade be removed from his command. Bach-Zelewski agreed, as the troublesome unit was slowing his efforts to suppress the uprising. As soon as replacement units were available, the Kaminski was pulled out of the line after losing about 500 men in combat during the fighting in Warsaw.Germans shelled and bombed Warsaw with everything they had, especially artillery (rocket launchers) and Stuka diving bombers New types of weapons were tested: giant mortar Tor whose shell literally wiped houses from the surface, or Goliath explosive carrier to blow up barricades and fortified builduings. The Soviets stopped their offensive and didn`t intend to cross the river. Reasons - to be discussed. What is worse, initially they refused to host the shuttle flights with supplies for insurgents from Western Allies - the air drops took place too late to change anything. Despite ferocious defence of Warsaw fighters, who fought for every house and street with incredible sacrifice, often hand to hand, the liberated territory was shrinking. Thousands of insurgents and civilians died in fighting, in German executions, fires, destroyed houses. They lacked food and water. Also ammo slowly finished. Germans murdered wounded soldiers and medical personnel in military hospitals. Women and girls were raped on a mass scale. Warsaw changed into hell. In mid September Germans replaced police units with regular front units, including tank divisions, which made short work with insurgents. The situation was hopeless, so after 63 days of heroic fight, Warsaw capitulated. From 120.000 to 200.000 civilians died, about 18.000 insurgents were killed in action or executions. 25% of left-bank Warsaw was destroyed in the Rising, next 35% afterwards. With 10% destruction from 1939 and 10% of Ghetto area razed to the ground, literally, Warsaw practically ceased to exist. A long wall with AK soldiers` names
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Post by valpomike on Apr 2, 2008 1:18:25 GMT 1
That is very sad, but we must never forget. Most off, never let it happen again.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 2, 2008 21:25:03 GMT 1
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 6, 2008 20:41:50 GMT 1
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 6, 2008 20:54:51 GMT 1
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Post by valpomike on Apr 6, 2008 22:16:15 GMT 1
I was there, last year, and say my great grandfathers name on the wall. This near had me in tears.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 12, 2008 21:43:32 GMT 1
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 12, 2008 21:58:07 GMT 1
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 12, 2008 22:11:17 GMT 1
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Post by valpomike on Apr 13, 2008 3:19:03 GMT 1
Poland has come a long way, in a short time. This was a bad time for mother Poland, but she won in the end, and will each time.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 15, 2008 22:11:12 GMT 1
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Post by valpomike on Apr 15, 2008 23:01:17 GMT 1
That is so sad, what the Germans did to Poland, but we all know, that Poland is again great. Long live Poland.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 23, 2008 15:21:01 GMT 1
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Post by valpomike on Apr 23, 2008 20:35:20 GMT 1
Dam the wars and the Germans who did this.
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 17, 2008 20:49:41 GMT 1
Bonobo, this is exactly the opinion I was astonished about. I know you are astonished. I have met such reactions before. Do you know it is the third forum in which I am extensively dealing with the Warsaw Uprising? And I still stick to my opinion.... My God - I am so stubborn..... My opinion is short - Warsaw Uprising was the most chaotic, unprepared reckless military brawl that Poles had ever ventured on. The most romantic and the most catastrophic. I praise individual soldiers` bravery because they performed unbelievable things - held the city for two months despite massive bombing and shelling, despite German appalling cruelties, despite lack of weapons and ammo. They were the flower of the nation and showed their patriotism in the way they thought was the best at the time - they gave their life for Poland. I condemn leaders who gave a hasty order to start the Rising. They totally ignored the fact that Warsaw was a densely populated city and in case of any confrontation the civilians would become hostages trapped in the fighting city. The truth is they doomed the city to annihilation. Today their names are given to streets, schools, institutions all over Poland. There are monuments in their honour. I think it is an outrageous injustice to all the victims who perished in Warsaw - blown up in bomb explosions, under ruined houses or executed by mad Germans and their barbaric allies from the East.
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Post by valpomike on Jun 18, 2008 0:41:57 GMT 1
I hope that Poland, or any other place has to go into this again. So many death, and waste. We all need to try to stop this from ever going on again.
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Post by tufta on Jun 18, 2008 11:30:45 GMT 1
Bonobo, this is exactly the opinion I was astonished about. I know you are astonished. I have met such reactions before. Do you know it is the third forum in which I am extensively dealing with the Warsaw Uprising? And I still stick to my opinion.... My God - I am so stubborn..... My opinion is short - Warsaw Uprising was the most chaotic, unprepared reckless military brawl that Poles had ever ventured on. The most romantic and the most catastrophic. I praise individual soldiers` bravery because they performed unbelievable things - held the city for two months despite massive bombing and shelling, despite German appalling cruelties, despite lack of weapons and ammo. They were the flower of the nation and showed their patriotism in the way they thought was the best at the time - they gave their life for Poland. I condemn leaders who gave a hasty order to start the Rising. They totally ignored the fact that Warsaw was a densely populated city and in case of any confrontation the civilians would become hostages trapped in the fighting city. The truth is they doomed the city to annihilation. Today their names are given to streets, schools, institutions all over Poland. There are monuments in their honour. I think it is an outrageous injustice to all the victims who perished in Warsaw - blown up in bomb explosions, under ruined houses or executed by mad Germans and their barbaric allies from the East. Bonobo, I fully undertstand your point, I appreciate that you care, even if your and my views are not identical here. Were you a twenty year old boy in Warsaw 1944, you'd run on the barricade no matter if the commanders told you to do so or not. That's my opinion. I was astonished about something else, if you remember,
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 18, 2008 13:21:17 GMT 1
Were you a twenty year old boy in Warsaw 1944, you'd run on the barricade no matter if the commanders told you to do so or not. Yes, I would, because when I was 20 years old, I fully supported the idea of great Polish martyrdom in Warsaw Rising. As for taking part in it with commanders` orders or not, I don`t think I would have started fighting without an order. I would be a soldier, wouldn`t I ? And soldiers act on orders. If not, they are court martialled.... So, you see, the Rising wouldn`t have started if headless commanders hadn`t given orders. Oops, sometimes my genius fails me because I really don`t know what you mean..... Probably I am too self-centred which makes me unaware of other people`s needs and wishes. I am sorry for that.
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Post by tufta on Jun 18, 2008 13:46:12 GMT 1
So, you see, the Rising wouldn`t have started if headless commanders hadn`t given orders. This is one of the points we diagree. never mind that! as a genius you must be a little absent-minded, it's normal!
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 18, 2008 16:45:01 GMT 1
So, you see, the Rising wouldn`t have started if headless commanders hadn`t given orders. This is one of the points we diagree. But you can`t deny that my opinion is based on facts - Komorowski gave an order which started the Rising. Your opinion is based on presumption - you believe that the Rising would have started even without his order. Whose argument is stronger? Let us suppose that a group of underground fighters would have started the Rising without an order. E.g., in mid July, instead of 1 August. You know it fropm Polish history - the thing like that happened in 19 century: 200 hot-headed young non-commissioned officers started the November Uprising in 1830. What do you think? Would other soldiers and civilians in Warsaw have joined the rebellious group? Even if anybody joined, would the fighters have survived more than a day? What would Komorowski have done with rebels? Court martial seems the only possibilty to administer to unruly soldiers........ Like Einstein? ooops, I think it was Frankenstein... Oh gosh, I never remember the name of this genius professor who discovered sth what nobody had discovered before. Can you help me out with this? I am not only absent-minded, but in fact I suffer from sclerosis.
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Post by tufta on Jun 19, 2008 10:13:16 GMT 1
Whose argument is stronger? Mine! It is not based on assumptions. I wouldn't dare to put my assumptions to counterweight your assumptions as assumptions are equal in wieght. It is based on strong facts and relations of the dwellers of Warsaw of that time, AK soldiers and other sources, , inluding members of my family. It is well thought by myself through many years of my life. I too - like you - went through different stages of looking at the this tragic event. I was neglecting the leaders at some time too, and was asking similar questions, as I was a liitle bit fed up with the myth of the Uprising I grew, while I had to live in an ugly city. My grandparents and parents seemed not to mind the ugliness that much - they seem not to notice it and with their minds eyes they must have been still looking at the prewar Warsaw that was a pearl and charming city. You know when I 'forgave' the past generations their 'romanticism' that cost Warsaw so much? When I heard unanimous words: we were so angry we'd fight this way or another, we dreamed of it. Full stop. Can you blame 20 or 20-some old boys and girls, after 5 years of the , well, barbaric German occupation? I can't. And the leaders? They assumed Warsaw would be destroyed even without the uprising, festung Warsaw, you must have heard about it. Plus the civil disobiedience of Warsowians in the last days of August - they refused to built the treches. There're more arguments. And do you really assume Bor-Komorowski would give the final order 'fight!' if he new what the Germans would do to the city and people? I present a text here, it is in Polish, I hope the English readers will excuse me. You know the man. There's more in the link ofiaromwojny.republika.pl/teksty/0113.htmSince you're strongly interested in this problem - fouth discussion you say - I am sure you'll read it. One of the authors is a member of my close family, btw. It is obvious you know enough about the Uprising you can "discuss" with those authors, in your mind. I am not such a good partner Łuna nad miastem Władysław Bartoszewski Kiedy dorocznie dnia 1 sierpnia milknie odgłos werbli, bębnów, trąb, które towarzyszą uroczystościom oficjalnym na cmentarzu warszawskim, gdzie leży znaczna część poległych powstańców - zaczynają napływać na cmentarz tysiące, dziesiątki tysięcy (...) ludzi, w ogromnej większości młodych, którzy nie idą tam na groby kolegów; którzy idą tam z wolnego wyboru, świadczyć swą obecnością o opcji na rzecz wartości tradycji narodowej i niedawnej historii. I płoną nad cmentarzem wojskowym w Warszawie światła zapalone wiernymi rękami w takich ilościach i wymiarach, że łuna unosi się nad północno-zachodnią częścią Warszawy, widoczna z nadlatującego samolotu czy jadącego w tym kierunku - spoza Warszawy - auta. Łuna, która wprowadza w zdziwienie ludzi nieświadomych przyczyny. (...) Świadomość celów wojny i celów walki toczonej z przemocą okupanta (a taka wspólna świadomość - powszechna świadomość - była) stała się jednym z podstawowych źródeł siły społeczeństwa w tamtych latach. Walkę o wolność, o suwerenność państwa utożsamiano w okupowanej Warszawie z walką o prawa ludzkie, o godność każdego człowieka, o godność osobistą. Straszliwe ciśnienie terroru okupanta w latach masowych deportacji do obozów koncentracyjnych, w latach potajemnych egzekucji, po których powstały kałuże krwi na bruku, próby poniżania, poniewierania ludzi - to wszystko uważano za zjawiska przemijające. Powszechnie wierzono, że u kresu tego zjawiska przyjdzie otwarte, zbrojne, powszechne wystąpienie - osobisty udział społeczeństwa w odzyskaniu wolności. Przywiązanie do imponderabiliów Ten specyficzny sposób myślenia i ten sposób odczuwania dyktował wówczas w hierarchii wartości zdecydowany odruch protestu, uznawanego za niezbędny bez względu na realne szanse i konsekwencje, gdy przebrała się miara nieprawości i zbrodni. W tym proteście, w samej gotowości do niego, zawierało się ogromne przywiązanie owej minionej generacji do imponderabiliów. Prawdą jest, że decyzja o wybuchu powstania podjęta była w niewielkim gronie ludzi przez konspiracyjne, legalne władze polskiego państwa podziemnego. Ale prawdą jest również, że decyzję poprzedziła spontaniczna, solidarna, masowa decyzja społeczna, decyzja stawienia jawnie oporu woli okupanta, decyzja równa rzuceniu rękawicy przez społeczeństwo bez żadnych wezwań i bez żadnych dyrektyw, a mianowicie: 27 lipca 1944 roku ówczesny hitlerowski, niesławnej pamięci, gubernator Ludwik Fischer ogłosił przez megafony - poparte potem plakatami - wezwanie do stawienia się następnego dnia, czyli 28 lipca 1944 roku, w sześciu punktach Warszawy stu tysięcy mężczyzn w wieku od 17 do 65 lat do przymusowych robót fortyfikacyjnych. Wezwanie zbojkotowano. A wiemy, że te nonsensowne zresztą w praktyce poczynania fortyfikacyjne prowadzone były w wielu punktach okupowanej Polski przez wiele miesięcy i że mimo powszechnej przecież niechęci do świadczeń na rzecz wroga - ludzie, radzi nieradzi, bojąc się konsekwencji, pod naciskiem, w tych robotach uczestniczyli. Ten zbiorowy, manifestacyjny bojkot spotkał wtedy okupanta tylko w Warszawie. Logika wskazuje, że niewątpliwie musiałby on pociągnąć za sobą w następnych dniach konsekwencje. Do nich należałyby przede wszystkim: całkowita ewakuacja tak wrogo nastawionej ludności z miasta i obrócenia w ten sposób Warszawy w bazę przyfrontową czy twierdzę. Realizowano to wszak potem wśród ruin stolicy, w październiku, po powstaniu. Znak wiary ogółu Nie ma do dziś sensownej odpowiedzi, czy wobec polityki hitlerowskiej i jej znanych reguł działania istniała w ogóle możliwość zabezpieczenia miasta Warszawy i ludności Warszawy przed zniszczeniem podyktowanym zbrodniczymi celami okupanta. Wiadomo jednak, że było nie do pomyślenia zachowanie przez to milionowe niemal miasto, skupisko Polaków, bierności na linii frontu przez szereg miesięcy. Ale wiadomo również, że front stał do 17 stycznia, a więc od sierpnia jest to prawie pół roku! Jest czystą teorią, utopijną politycznie i historycznie, aby Niemcy mogli ścierpieć na bezpośrednim swoim zapleczu, przy toczącej się na linii Wisły walce, Warszawę integralną, nienaruszoną, najeżoną ukrytą bronią i dyszącą chęcią wzięcia odwetu na okupancie. Faktem jest, że kiedy powstanie wybuchło, nawet niechętni mu komuniści polscy zmuszeni byli do przyznania w organie prasowym "Armia Ludowa", w numerze z 27 sierpnia 1944 roku, że żadne jeszcze z powstań, których widownią była Warszawa, nie miało tak jednolitego poparcia społeczeństwa. Po latach nieco przeredagowano tę myśl - że mianowicie powstanie było w ogóle sprawą społeczeństwa, jakby jakiekolwiek społeczeństwo mogło zorganizować się i bez sił kierowniczych, dowódczych, przez dziewięć tygodni trwać w prawie milionowym mieście w zorganizowanym oporze, z najrozmaitszymi służbami, które były niezbędne do funkcjonowania życia. Przywódcy Powstania Warszawskiego należeli do uczestników walk o niepodległość w konspiracji przed pierwszą wojną światową i w czasie tej wojny. Ludzie, którzy byli młodzieńcami przed rokiem 1914 i w latach 1914 - 1920, mieli w chwili wybuchu Powstania Warszawskiego lat pięćdziesiąt, czterdzieści kilka, pięćdziesiąt kilka. Walka o wolność była ich życiorysem, a ogromna większość uczestników powstania, młodzieży, była wychowana w niepodległej Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej, w wielkim poszanowaniu patriotycznych tradycji niepodległościowych i powstańczych, była przywiązana do wolności i do suwerenności jako oczywistego elementu swojego osobistego życia, swojego osobistego bytu, a w konsekwencji nigdy niepogodzona z samym faktem okupacji, zbuntowana przeciwko wszystkiemu, co stało się udziałem tej generacji w ciągu tak strasznego pięciolecia od 1939 roku. W czasie wojny postępowała zaś prawdziwa demokratyzacja opinii, autentyczna i oddolna; szeroki i coraz szerszy udział młodzieży robotniczej, młodzieży rzemieślniczej, młodzieży chłopskiej w podziemiu, w konspiracji wojskowej, w konspiracji politycznej, w konspiracji harcerskiej sprzyjał upowszechnieniu się pojęć wolności, w których znak równości stawiano między gotowością do ofiar i walki a prawem do niepodległego bytu. I w tym sensie Powstanie Warszawskie było wprawdzie zespołem działań militarnych, ale także czymś o wiele większym. Było uzewnętrznieniem tęsknot społecznych, uzewnętrznieniem wiary ogółu. Suwerenny akt Rzeczypospolitej Jeden z surowych krytyków Powstania Warszawskiego, znany historyk wojskowości Jerzy Kirchmayer, uznał kilkanaście lat po wojnie przy - jak powiedziałem - negatywnym nastawieniu do koncepcji powstania, że bohaterstwo, ofiarność i zaciętość powstańców są największym w naszej historii przejawem walki o wolność jako wartości wyższej niż życie ludzkie, kalectwo, wszystkie dobra materialne. Byłoby ciężkim błędem nie doceniać, a co gorsza odżegnywać się od takich wartości duchowych. Takiego błędu niedoceniania i odżegnywania się społeczeństwo polskie potrafiło się - mimo nacisku systemu komunistycznego - ustrzec przez całe czterdziestolecie. Istnieje kilka generalnych ocen Powstania Warszawskiego. Najpozytywniejszą ocenę sprawności organizacyjnej AK, która potrafiła wytrwać w walce zamierzonej na 3 - 4 dni przez 63 dni, bohaterstwa, konsekwencji, wytrwałości, umiejętności, efektów, skutków, jakie powstanie spowodowało dla wroga, dla armii niemieckiej, znajdujemy, o dziwo, w materiałach naukowych ogłaszanych przez historyków zachodnioniemieckich. Krytyka wychodzi, niekiedy bardzo ostra, spod pióra Polaków. (...) Nikt nie zastanawia się nad tym, że mieliśmy i mamy prawo - jakkolwiek z szacunkiem, sympatią czy tolerancją odnosilibyśmy się do interesów różnych państw - do prowadzenia własnej polityki, a nawet popełniania własnych błędów. I ktoś powiedział bardzo wnikliwie, że Powstanie Warszawskie, kto wie czy nie na długie lata, było ostatnim suwerennym aktem dawnej Rzeczypospolitej, podjętym decyzją Polaków w interesie długofalowej racji stanu Polski. (...) Władysław Bartoszewski - "Warto być przyzwoitym". Fragmenty rozdziału "Rozważania o Powstaniu Warszawskim". Wyd. "W drodze", Poznań 1990. Tytuł i śródtytuły powyższej publikacji - redakcja "Rz".
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 5, 2008 22:18:52 GMT 1
Whose argument is stronger? Mine! ;D ;D ;D By mine do you mean a mine? Or a mine? Or just mine? Without a commander`s order, the Rising wouldn`t have started. The men who gave such an order are responsible for everything what happened afterwards. Interesting.... We changed our opinions in opposite directions... And they were happy to be alive... so the ugliness didn` t matter. Yes, I can blame them for that and it comes out of my religious beliefs. Being mostly Catholic, Poles shouldn`t have taken any vengeful actions against their oppressors because you are told to forgive your enemy not once, but 77 times. Can you imagine those prayers at the time: Oh, help us God, we are going to massacre the Germans at last! ? Isn`t it natural that God left the mto their fate? Again assumptions..... But as long as the assumption of the Festung Warschau and resulting destruction remains a hypothesis and not a documented fact, we must stick to what we know from history: It was Warsaw Rising that caused the destruction of the city. The refusal didn` t mean much. Germans were used to Warsawians` restive attitude, and having the Red Army at the doorstep, they were really occupied with other more serious problems than chasing people and forcing them to dig fortifications. The truth is that Germans suspended their terror for a while not to antagonize Poles on the eve of Bolshevik invasion. Of course he wouldn`t. Yes, being a leader of a nation is a difficult matter. You either succeed and are remembered as a great hero, e.g., Jan III Sobieski, the King of Poland who defeated Turks, or you fail and then you are remembered by your compatriots as a loser, e.g., King Stanisław Poniatowski, who sold Poland to Russia for a life pension from the tsars..... I still claim: individual soldiers and civilians of Warsaw were heroes and they deserve our respect. Commanders of the Rising were losers and it is unfair they are so respected today..... Yes, I know and respect the old man very much. He is a noble man. And I have this book in my library... However, in the quotes you provide, there is a fragment about the Polish national cause (imponderabilia). Unluckily, it usually happened during last 200 years that Poles always thought about their national cause, ie. independence, forgetting about technical means to achieve it, i.e., arms, ammo and supplies. I am sick and tired of reading about great ideals which led Poles to battles for independence. What is left of a great ideal if the men are massacred because they fight with scythes against carbines??? Rotting corpses.... Then the ideal becomes rotten too. Don` t you think?
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Post by tufta on Jul 6, 2008 12:07:49 GMT 1
Then the ideal becomes rotten too. Don` t you think? I understand your point fully. I would say your attitude best serves Polish cause. But, having said what you've said above, and having said it now - summer 2008, you'd still be on the barricade in August '44 were you 20 in Warsaw. You'd be there no matter if the commanders told you to to do so. If they didn't - you'd be there in a more spontaneous manner. That's my point. To tell you the truth I kind of flinch at only one argument of yours - when you are putting all the blame on Poles fighting for their freedom. I think I know a SS-loving, Poland-hating individual in the other forum who'd love to read such phrases.
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 16, 2008 19:56:54 GMT 1
I understand your point fully. I would say your attitude best serves Polish cause. But, having said what you've said above, and having said it now - summer 2008, you'd still be on the barricade in August '44 were you 20 in Warsaw. You'd be there no matter if the commanders told you to to do so. If they didn't - you'd be there in a more spontaneous manner. That's my point. I would be there with my bare hands. If I died because of the lack of ammo and weapons, my family would have the full right to blame the commanders for inciting me to die a stupid death on a barricade. Who should I put the blame on? The Rising was a purely Polish romantic act, from its very beginning. The insurgents were Polish, they had Polish commanders, the Rising was in a Polish city, all Warsavians were happy to see their city liberated in the first days. My recent visit to Warsaw hasn`t changed my old attitude to the Rising, it is even strengthened now. If you mean that I should mention German criminals who suppressed the Rising and blame them, it is natural they were to blame too. But their murderous instincts had been known long before the Rising, so expecting that Poles could start such a major revolt without receiving mass retaliation from Germans was utter stupidity. It was obvious that Germans would use all means possible to finish the Rising. The diaries of German soldiers prove it: "If Poles thought that the Rising is a simple thing and the fight would be gentlemanly, they were wrong."
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Post by tufta on Jul 17, 2008 3:07:35 GMT 1
You'd be there no matter if the commanders told you to to do so. If they didn't - you'd be there in a more spontaneous manner. That's my point. I would be there with my bare hands. If I died because of the lack of ammo and weapons, my family would have the full right to blame the commanders for inciting me to die a stupid death on a barricade. Why should your family blame the commanders, were there no orders to start the fight? You'd be fighting no matter what was the order, that's what the then twenty years olds say. And that's the point. Why should your family blame the commanders, not themselves? It was your family, your parents, grand-parents, and great grand parents, and your teachers, the media, the books that have rised you, tought you, constructed your whole mindset. You'd shout 'Polaka powołanie dobrze znam' and go. pl.youtube.com/watch?v=FdMolFr7i44 Your family should blame themselves not you, and not your commanders. They should blame their Polishness, their own history. It was so easy, to avoid your death in 1944, Bonobo. They could have signed volkslist in 1939 when the Germans came and could have rised you as a young member of the ubermensch. You'd be a member of Hitlerjugend, and you'd be alive! Instead they taught you what is your vocation, and you have fulfilled it. Yes, and it was not the Warsavians who ruined the city in an out of fight situation and later 200 000 of them committed suicide.
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 21, 2008 10:14:03 GMT 1
Tufta, I am not the only person who holds such views. There are(were) more of us....... ofiaromwojny.republika.pl/teksty/0113.htmStare Miasto. Póki była ze mną "Lunia" nie było najgorzej, wspierałyśmy się wzajemnie i dni wypełnione bombardowaniem - które na szczęście nas nie dosięgło - a także wyczekiwaniem na odwiedziny kolegów jakoś mijały. Ale po paru dniach "Lunia" wróciła do oddziału, a ja musiałam zostać, bo kiedy tylko spuszczałam nogę, pojawiało się wraz z bólem silne krwawienie. Wtedy - chyba po raz pierwszy - odczułam prawdziwy strach. Zrozumiałam wówczas, o ile gorszą sytuację ma ludność cywilna od nas - uczestniczących w walce. To bierne wyczekiwanie na wybuch bomb, zrzucanych przez lecące bezpośrednio nad dachami samoloty, to był koszmar. Liczyło się wtedy sekundy od uderzenia do ewentualnego wybuchu bomby - łudząc się do końca, że zostanie zbombardowana sąsiednia kamienica. Wstydziłam się tych uczuć, ale ich doznawałam! I chyba dopiero wtedy zrozumiałam, że oprócz nas - tych, którzy zgłosili się do walki na ochotnika - do tej wojny wciągnęliśmy, nie pytając ich o zgodę, tysiące matek, dzieci, starców....I realised that civilians had a much worse situation than we, insurgents. It was only then that I understood that apart from us, the military volunteers, we pushed into this war, not asking for their permission, thousands of mothers, children, old people.....Gen. Sosnkowski, wiedząc o zamiarach premiera, udał się w tym czasie do Włoch pod pozorem inspekcji 2 Korpusu, aby mając tam za sobą poparcie wojska, narzucić swą wolę rządowi i krajowi. Ostrzegał, że w razie gdyby Mikołajczyk zdecydował się w Moskwie na ustępstwa z [terytorialnych] praw Polski lub jakąkolwiek fuzję z rządem agentów sowieckich, wywoła kryzys nieobliczalny w skutkach, co najmniej w postaci wypowiedzenia posłuszeństwa zespołowi rządowemu. Jednocześnie precyzował w kolejnych depeszach do gen. Komorowskiego swe poglądy strategiczne: w obliczu szybkich postępów okupacji sowieckiej i przyjętej przez Sowietów metody gwałtów, presji i faktów dokonanych należy dążyć do zaoszczędzenia substancji biologicznej narodu w obliczu podwójnej groźby eksterminacji. W tej sytuacji powstanie zbrojne byłoby aktem pozbawionym politycznego sensu, mogącym za sobą pociągnąć niepotrzebne ofia-General Sosnkowski: in view of the fast Soviet offensive and their policy of violence, pressure and incontrovertible facts, we must seek ways to save the biological substance of the nation which is facing extermination from two sides. In this situation the Rising would be deprived of any political sense, entailing unnecessary victims. The decision was taken too hastily... General Bór, Home Army commander, talks to his intelligence officer Płk Kazimierz Iranek-Osmecki: Około 16.45 wyszedłem z placu Napoleona, znajdującego się zaledwie o kilkaset metrów od ulicy Pańskiej. Na wysokości ulicy Marszałkowskiej zostałem zatrzymany przez niemiecką zaporę, co zmusiło mnie do obejścia tego miejsca i nadłożenia drogi. (...) W przedpokoju wpadłem na "Bora". Wyglądało, że właśnie wychodzi. Spojrzałem na niego zdziwiony i zapytałem: - Jak to, pan jest sam, pozostali nie przyszli? - Zebranie się skończyło - odpowiedział szybko. - Wydałem rozkaz do rozpoczęcia walk. Popatrzyłem na niego zaskoczony i powiedziałem machinalnie: - Rozpoczęcie walk? Ale dlaczego? - "Monter" przyniósł informacje, według których czołgi sowieckie zajmują właśnie Okuniew, Radość i Miłosną oraz zrobiły wyłom na przyczółku mostowym na Pradze. Powiedział, że jeśli nie zaczniemy natychmiast, to ryzykujemy, że możemy się spóźnić. Wydałem więc rozkaz. (..) - Popełnił pan błąd, panie generale. Informacje "Montera" nie są ścisłe. Otrzymałem właśnie ostatnie raporty od moich miejscowych agentów. Dementują wyraźnie pogłoski, że przyczółek mostowy na Pradze został rozbity. Przeciwnie, potwierdzają wszystko to, o czym mówiłem rano: Niemcy przygotowują się do kontrnatarcia. "Bór" usiadł lub raczej opadł na krzesło. Przesunął kilka razy ręką po czole, po czym zapytał mnie bezbarwnym, urywanym głosem: (...)
- Co mam robić - szeptał. - Co mogę zrobić, co mi pan radzi?
Miałem wrażenie, że mogę jeszcze powstrzymać przeznaczenie.
Zapytałem go:
- Czy ma pan łączniczkę, którą mógłby pan posłać do "Montera", aby odwołać rozkaz?
- Spojrzał na mnie (...) - Mój Boże, już szósta. Już przeszło godzina, jak "Monter" wyszedł. Dawno już pewnie zdążył rozesłać rozkazy. Za późno, nie możemy już nic zrobić.
Zrozumiawszy nagle, o co chodzi, Szostak wykrzyknął:
- Jak to, wydał pan rozkaz nie poradziwszy się Iranka, szefa II Oddziału, ani mnie? Ależ to szaleństwo. Damy się w ten sposób wymordować. Trzeba natychmiast anulować rozkaz.
Lecz "Bór" tylko odpowiedział:
- Za późno, nie możemy już nic poradzić. You made a mistake, Mr General. Information of your commander isn`t precise. My local agents have better. Russians were pushed from the river bank. Germans are not retreating, worse, they are preparing a massive counterattack. What shall I do now? What can I do? What is your advice?? - asked the general. You issued an order without consultation with intelligence officers or me? This is madness. Germans will murder us all. The order must be annuled. It is too late, we can`t help it - replied the general.
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Post by tufta on Jul 21, 2008 16:30:25 GMT 1
- Za późno, nie możemy już nic poradzić.
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
Posts: 1,470
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Post by gigi on Aug 1, 2008 19:47:36 GMT 1
Poland remembers 1944 Warsaw Uprising against Nazis
Polish officials and relatives of those who rose up against Nazi occupiers in the capital unveiled a plaque Thursday honoring the leader of the Warsaw Uprising. It was the first in a series of observances marking the 64th anniversary of the doomed struggle that remains a national source of pride.
Adam Komorowski, the son of Gen. Tadeusz ŤBorť Komorowski, who led the 1944 uprising, unveiled the brass plaque in the yard of the Warsaw Rising Museum, along with parliament Speaker Bronislaw Komorowski and others. "My father took the responsibility for starting the ... bloody struggle that went on for 63 days," Komorowski told a crowd that included veterans of the event. "Then he had to take this very hard decision to end the struggleť in the face of overwhelming odds and an enemy with massive firepower. The elder Komorowski gave the order for the underground Home Army to open street-by-street fighting against German soldiers on Aug. 1, 1944, aimed at liberating the capital.
Some 250,000 civilians were killed in the revolt, which lasted until Oct. 2 before being crushed. The city was razed. Komorowski left the capital, was put in a prisoner of war of camp and died in exile in London in 1966 at the age of 71.
More than a week of observances in the capital will include a roll call at the downtown Monument to the Warsaw Rising, a changing of the guards at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and awarding of medals to surviving veterans by President Lech Kaczynski. There will also be open air masses and performances depicting the plight of the fighters and the civilians in the struggling city.
Source: The Associated Press 2008-08-01
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
Posts: 1,470
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Post by gigi on Aug 1, 2008 20:12:16 GMT 1
Photo of Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Grob Nieznanego Zolnierza) Poland honours fighters who rose against the NazisPosted August 1st, 2008 by Sahil Nagpal (topnews) Thousands of Poles took part in day-long events Friday to mark the 64th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising against the Nazi occupation during World War II. Prime Minister Donald Tusk and President Lech Kaczynski laid wreaths at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in the capital. Other events were slated to honour Stefan Rowecki, leader of the Polish Home Army, and Antoni Chrusciel, a commander of the armed forces during the failed attempt to liberate Warsaw in 1944. "It was a battle fought very heroically," Kaczynski told TVN Info. "It was extraordinarily fierce and was at first led by what was really an unequipped army." The 63-day struggle claimed some 18,000 Polish soldiers and ended in defeat. Although the odds were heavily against the Poles, who were poorly armed and outnumbered, the battle is viewed as an heroic struggle for an independent Poland free from Nazi and Soviet occupation. Nationwide, Poles paid tribute to the insurgents with ceremonies in Krakow, Gdansk and several other cities. Events to mark the anniversary continued in Warsaw into the evening, with theatre performances and showcase of songs from the Uprising and at 5 pm the capital's metros and trams coming to a standstill for a minute of silence at the exact time the uprising began.
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Post by Bonobo on Aug 4, 2008 14:38:15 GMT 1
Polish officials and relatives of those who rose up against Nazi occupiers in the capital unveiled a plaque Thursday honoring the leader of the Warsaw Uprising. Honouring the leader whose decision caused 200.000 dead and the destruction of the city??? How unfair... I hope it isn`t a source of national pride for people with enough imagination and reason. If he was really responsible, he should have committed the suicide after the lost Rising, like an honourable officer of the Polish army, like Captain Raginis who defended Wizna position and when German took it, he killed himself. Sorry to say it , but Komorowski is an as,shole to me. His hasty, reckless decision to start the Rising against such odds totally discredited him as a leader and officer. What bullsh it!! Hard decision? There was nothing else that could have been done. The decision to capitulate saved a few dozen thousand lives more. Did he ever apologise to victims` families?
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