Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 11,454 Location: Krak`s Town, Lesser Poland
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #30 on Aug 4, 2008, 7:46pm »
Family Scenes from the Uprising Jerzy S. Majewski, Tomasz Urzykowski Gazeta Wyborcza 2008-08-01
It lay for sixty four years in the cupboard, known only to the author's family. An unknown film with scenes from the Warsaw Uprising in the Dolny Mokotów area has just been contributed to the Warsaw Uprising Museum. It is the first ever discovered document from the era shot by a civilian with an amateur camera. At the beginning, we see a young mother with two infant babies. The happy father leans over the twins too. Though the year is 1940, there is no trace of war or occupation in these scenes. Another fragment shows an idyllic picnic with friends in a park. Betraying the time are the ruins of the small palace in Królikarnia, burnt down back in 1939. Then some equally idyllic scenes from the banks of the river Świder: a hot summer day, crowds sunbathing on the beach. Holidays. The only thing missing from the picture to make it an image of pre-war normality are the Jews, who until 1939 were the main clientele of the summer resorts stretching alongside the Warsaw-Otwock railway.
And finally scenes from the Warsaw Uprising. They are drastic. We watch the tenement house at 41 Dolna street in Mokotów, torn in half by a bomb or a heavy mortar shell. One of the walls has collapsed. The wooden ceilings have given up and now hang torpidly like curtains. Objects from the building have spilt out and gotten mixed with the debris. Pieces of furniture, sewage pipes, bed linen, books, broken porcelain and human remains. The camera records dispassionately how a man in pyjamas leans over a dead woman, trying to resuscitate her. He lifts her hand. Other men carry massacred human remains on a stretcher.
Another scene: a four-year-old Wojtek Rowiński, with a German helmet on his head and a Parabellum gun in his hand, plays a soldier. Next to him stand soldiers from the Home Army's Granat unit. A couple of hundred metres from them, real bullets fly and people really die.
'We've acquired the film by accident. An engineer called us who, working at a building site, met a supervision inspector named Wojciech Rowiński. The same one whom we see in the film as an infant and then as the boy with the gun. There had been rumours, the engineer said, that his father went around with a film camera during the Uprising', said Jan Ołdakowski, Director of the Warsaw Uprising Museum.
A couple of weeks later Wojciech Rowiński presented the Museum with several reels of 8 mm film. The whole footage is 54 minutes long. 'They lay in our overheard cupboard. When I was younger, I sometimes played the reels back to my son, and my brother did to his daughter', Mr Rowiński told Gazeta.
Most of the footage was recorded during the occupation and the Warsaw Uprising by Mr Rowiński's father, Tadeusz Rowiński. He was the co-owner of Warsaw's largest butcher's business, Rowiński & Ruszkiewicz. The company had its office at Dolna 43 and operated five shops in various places across the city. It survived the war and the Uprising and it was only the communists that finished the business, confiscating it in 1950. Tadeusz Rowiński died in 1972.
'My father used a 1921 Kodak spring-driven camera. He bought it together with a projector in Vienna, where he studied business', said Mr Rowiński. He has donated the camera and projector to the Uprising Museum as well.
The reels contain also some German-shot footage. Tiger hunting in India, an air raid on an English city, Luftwaffe exercises, and scenes from Zakopane. The snow-covered Tatras are beautiful, but the only skiers on the slopes of Gubałówka are those in German uniforms - Poles were not allowed to ski there during the war.
'My father bought the reel from some German soldier. Why? I don't know', said Mr Rowiński.
Missing from the reels he has handed over to the Museum is perhaps the most interesting one. On 18 September 1943, Tadeusz Rowiński recorded from the roof of his house at Dolna 43 the largest allied airdrop for the fighting Warsaw. In fact, the only one carried out in daytime. The sky above the city suddenly started to swarm with a total of 107 B-17 Flying Fortresses, which had come here all the way from eastern England. Unfortunately, most of the airdrop ended up in German hands. Tadeusz Rowiński recorded also the seizure of a tank by the Home Army soldiers. Alas, soon after the war the reel was taken by a courier beyond the Iron Curtain, to London - and that was the last anyone heard about it.
'We wrote to the Sikorski Institute in London, which has over two tonnes of film footage in its storerooms, but they said, "Sorry, we don't have it and never heard about it"', regrets Mr Ołdakowski.
But even without the missing reel, Tadeusz Rowiński's film presents immense historical value. It has already been digitalised so that it can be presented to the public in modern-day formats. It will be shown for the first time today on a screen next to the Warsaw Uprising Museum.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 11,454 Location: Krak`s Town, Lesser Poland
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #31 on Aug 4, 2008, 8:38pm »
Polish youth popularize new patriotism Polish Radio 31.07.2008
Open air battle re-enactments, rock concerts, mural and comic book contests, bicycle rallies, vigils journeys and city games are only some of the ways the new generation of Poles remember the country's history.
Joanna Najfeld reports
Commemoration of important events is no longer limited to solemn celebrations attended mostly by veterans. Increasingly often young people take initiative, get actively involved and find their own ways of paying tribute to the heroes of the past. Such is the case with the celebrations of the 64th anniversary of the outbreak of the Warsaw Uprising.
[WARSAW RISING REENACTMENT SOUND EFFECTS] 'Boys, we attack the Germans. Jerzy strikes first, then Blondyn, then us. Is that clear? Fire!'
Open air reenactment of the Warsaw Rising is organized annually in the Polish capital to remember the days of the Nazi occupied city's heroic fight for independence and freedom. Young people, many of them scouts, equipped in era clothing and weapons, act out Poland's painful World War Two history.
Such events are organized increasingly often in Poland but are only one of many ways in which the new generation of Polish patriots express their love for their homeland, respect for the history, and tribute to their ancestors.
The recent government program "Patriotism for Tomorrow" was definitely helpful in promoting patriotic values among the younger generation, but for most youngsters the idea comes from the family.
[TEENAGE GIRL] 'For me, it's important to remember about our history, our past. The past, which can have some relation to the future. We should learn about our history. Talk about this, we should remember about those people who were trying to fight with Germans.' [TEENAGE BOY] 'My grandfather fought in the Second World War. He was also a teenager and a scout. I think I am a scout because my grandfather was one.'
Next to battle reenactments, other unconventional ways of observance of patriotic anniversaries include vigils, bike rallies, city games, mural contests, music and pop cultural events. All that to involve young people in active celebration of history.
'The way of celebrating patriotic anniversaries changed in the last few years. Young people began to feel that it's not only boring ceremonies, but they can express their emotion in their own way. In the Warsaw Rising Museum we try to convince them that every way of expressing emotion about historical events is good. We organize rock concerts, bicycle races, theatrical performances, city games - many events. Everybody can find something for himself and take part in the celebration. They find the emotion and they want to participate in anniversary celebrations, ' says Paweł Ukielski, deputy director of the Warsaw Rising Museum - a modern center of history education.
One of those who got interested in youth-targeting initiatives of the Warsaw Rising Museum was Tymek Jezierski. He won the contest for a comic book about the Warsaw Rising. In his 8-page book "The last concert", Tymek told the story of a building in Zoliborz district, which hosted concerts during the Rising: 'This place doesn't even have a commemorative plaque on the wall so hardly anybody knows what happened there. We thought it was worth telling that such a thing took place there in Zoliborz where my friends live these days. Many people pass this building every day without realizing that 30 people died in it the massacre of the Warsaw Rising.'
Jazz vocalist Aga Zaryan's latest CD features settings of poems from the period of the Warsaw Rising: 'I started looking for poetry from the war time and I found beautiful lyrics. And I thought this is really what I should do. So for me it's a kind of tribute to all the people who were fighting. You know, I'm very proud of being Polish. I'm proud! I come from Warsaw and my grandparents were taking part in the Warsaw Rising, they were fighting, real patriots. After the Second World War they were in opposition. My grandfather was in jail during Stalin's time and in my house there was a lot of talking about Poland' freedom and independence. Being patriotic is maybe not a very fashionable thing but I am. I am and I will be.'
Honouring the leader whose decision caused 200.000 dead and the destruction of the city??? How unfair...
The quote was: "Polish officials and relatives of those who rose up against Nazi occupiers in the capital unveiled a plaque Thursday honoring the leader of the Warsaw Uprising."
I have read through all of the discussions between you and Tufta on the Uprising. Your opinions differ, but you both offer strong cases for your views. Given the amount of plaques, street names, etc. that are given to honor those responsible for the Uprising as well as the annual remembrance of the anniversary, is it correct to assume that the majority of Polish people look at this historical event in a positive way (an example of Polish people fighting for their freedom), or does the opinion differ across the population? Clearly the relatives of the leaders of the Uprising as well as the current political leaders in Poland view it as a positive event. It sounds as though the younger generation views the Uprising as an important event in Poland's history as well based on the article about the "new patriotism'.
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I hope it isn`t a source of national pride for people with enough imagination and reason.
Do you think it is as simple as being a source of pride because of the seemingly endless resolve of the Polish people to fight for their freedom? I would think that is a strong possibility for at least the younger generation who would not have lived during the Uprising, nor would they have had to live in a ruined city afterwards.
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If he was really responsible, he should have committed the suicide after the lost Rising, like an honourable officer of the Polish army, like Captain Raginis who defended Wizna position and when German took it, he killed himself.
Your opinion here surprises me. I don't think of suicide as being honorable. It is cowardly, and against the religious beliefs of many.
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Some 250,000 civilians were killed in the revolt, which lasted until Oct. 2 before being crushed. The city was razed. Komorowski left the capital, was put in a prisoner of war of camp and died in exile in London in 1966 at the age of 71. Did he ever apologise to victims` families?
Did they expect or want him to?
Please understand that I am not expressing an opinion one way or another about the Uprising, I am just seeking to learn more about how other people feel about this event. My tendency is to seek peaceful solutions where possible, but then again I have never had to face what the people of Warsaw did.
[quote author=gigi board=polishhistory thread=179 post=3980 time=1218035171] I have read through all of the discussions between you and Tufta on the Uprising. Your opinions differ, but you both offer strong cases for your views. Given the amount of plaques, street names, etc. that are given to honor those responsible for the Uprising as well as the annual remembrance of the anniversary, is it correct to assume that the majority of Polish people look at this historical event in a positive way (an example of Polish people fighting for their freedom), or does the opinion differ across the population? Clearly the relatives of the leaders of the Uprising as well as the current political leaders in Poland view it as a positive event. It sounds as though the younger generation views the Uprising as an important event in Poland's history as well based on the article about the "new patriotism'.
Yes, I think I am a substantial minority in this house of lunatics obsessed with their patriotism which justifies provoking brawls which result in massacres of hundred thousands.
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Your opinion here surprises me. I don't think of suicide as being honorable. It is cowardly, and against the religious beliefs of many.
Yes, I exaggerated a little here. But even so, I can` t imagine how he lived with the burden... Did he ever realise and admit what craziness he had ordered Poles to do in Warsaw?
Did they expect or want him to?
If I were him, I wouldn`t wait for anybody to remind me what I should do....
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Please understand that I am not expressing an opinion one way or another about the Uprising, I am just seeking to learn more about how other people feel about this event. My tendency is to seek peaceful solutions where possible, but then again I have never had to face what the people of Warsaw did.
People of Warsaw suffered incredible pain, both physical and mental. We can try to imagine what those executed felt before they died, seeing their chilren shot first. We can try to imagine how survivors felt when they left the execution scene, leaving their dead family members behind. We can try to imagine many other things and even if we imagine only half of it, it would be enough for some of us to go crazy unders the stress.
The men who take wrong decisions resulting in deaths and massacre should face a trial. But Poles are a strange nation - they are able to forgive ignorance, stupidity, recklessness, if it is in the name of freedom and motherland. I refuse to adopt such reasoning.
P.S. I apologize for the lack of English translation, the text is in Polish. But still I decided to post the link as it is extremely interesting and very much up to our discussions.
P.S. I apologize for the lack of English translation, the text is in Polish. But still I decided to post the link as it is extremely interesting and very much up to our discussions.
I have read it and don`t like it at all. It is a chaotic review of a book by a senile Polish author. The book is about the Rising and its author tries to sound very philosophical, but his musings don`t make much sense.
Some of ideas from the article:
Polish madness was an answer to German madness.
Warsaw Uprising was the greatest event in the history of Poland, not a disaster.
Gemans falsify history.
The Rising wasn`t a failure, it was a victory. Proof? Today`s independent Poland.
We have forgiven Germans too quickly and easily.
Sorry, tufta, but it hasn`t convinced me at all. Look, I am too old to change my mind about the Rising. It seems to be fixed till the end of my days....
While in Warsaw, I started teaching my sons about it: about the outstanding heroism of individual fighters who did their duty as best as they could, and appalling ignorance of the leaders who were unable to see the odds and sacrificed the city and its residents.
Yes, I am passing my eccentric views onto younger generation and nothing can be done about it..... Sorry...
The link I've posted was not intended to convince but to perhaps disseminate the knowledge of a new book by the author many consider the most outstanding Polish writer still alive. I will read the book, I read all the books and poems by Jarosław Marek Rymkiewicz so I cannot now abandon him only because his age is advancing. So is mine btw, and at the same rate! It is.., how to explain that? It is more about gathering the data, first-hand in that case, and a wise first hand, not about victory of one way of seeing these event over the other way. Hope it makes sense to you
The link I've posted was not intended to convince but to perhaps disseminate the knowledge of a new book by the author many consider the most outstanding Polish writer still alive. I will read the book, I read all the books and poems by Jarosław Marek Rymkiewicz so I cannot now abandon him only because his age is advancing. So is mine btw, and at the same rate! It is.., how to explain that? It is more about gathering the data, first-hand in that case, and a wise first hand, not about victory of one way of seeing these event over the other way. Hope it makes sense to you
Oh, I see. But, because of a few ideas he revealed in the article, I am NOT going to read that book.
Besides, I may sound backwards, but I have rarely heard about this guy. A few times only.... Is he really so prominent?
Godłem nam Biały Ptak, Our emblem is White Bird A "Parasol" to znak, Umbrella is our sign Naszym hasłem piosenka szturmowa! Our slogan is battle song Pośród kul, huku dział Among bullets and cannonade Oddział stoi, jak stał, Our unit is standing, like before Choć poległa już chłopców połowa. Although half boys are died Dziś padł on, jutro ja, śmierć nie pyta. Today fell he, tomorrow fall I, death don`t ask.
Godłem nam Biały Ptak, Our emblem is White Bird A "Parasol" to znak, Umbrella is our sign Naszym hasłem piosenka szturmowa! Our slogan is battle song Pośród kul, huku dział Among bullets and cannonade Oddział stoi, jak stał, Our unit is standing, like before Choć poległa juł chłopców połowa. Although half boys are died Dziś padł on, jutro ja, śmierć nie pyta. Today fell he, tomorrow fall I, death don`t ask.
Wow, thanks, I didn`t know this song. Is it new or comes from war times?
Yes, that was the reality. Half boys dead, destroyed city, thousands residents perished in executions or in ruined houses. Was it worth?
I saw Rising memorials during my trip to Warsaw this year and I didn`t change my mind - it wasn`t worth. The massacre could have been avoided have to take place if the leaders hadn`t been such hot-heads.
PS. Tomek, there were problems with the font in the Polish lyrics you provided. I corrected them in the quotes, now you can correct them too in your original post.
Certain matters haven`t been settled till today.
Retribution for WW2 crimes?Polish Radio 30.12.2008
German prosecutors hope that it will be possible to formally charge the former members of an SS brigade from WW2 commanded by Oskar Dirlewanger. Prosecutors have been able to locate ten former SS-men, among others responsible for crushing the Warsaw Rising. Germany's organisation for investigating Nazi crimes was approached last July by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance. Famous for its cruelty, Oskar Dirlewanger' s brigade took part in the massacre of Warsaw civillians in the district of Wola, when some 40 thousand people were killed. Dirlewanger himself died in 1945.
My com: Why did Poles approach Germans in July this year? Not too late? Couldn`t it be done in 1990s???? Are they going to prosecute 80 or 90 year old decrepit men from Direwanger units?
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 11,454 Location: Krak`s Town, Lesser Poland
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #41 on Jan 25, 2009, 9:35pm »
Posters To arms
Each bullet = one German
Revenge for the blood of thousands of Poles
The poem: Czerwona Zarazo The Red Plague Red Plague (Polish: Czerwona Zaraza) is a Polish poem, written in 1944 by Józef Szczepański, a World War Two time poet, who died during the Warsaw Uprising. Red plague inspired Polish Oscar-winning film director, Andrzej Wajda to create the movie Kanał.[1] The poem, which described the failed hopes of Warsaw insurgents that Red Army would save them, was banned in the People's Republic of Poland due to its anti-Soviet context; during the Stalin era the very possession of it was punishable by imprisonment.[2]
Szczepanski wrote it on August 29, 1944, just a few days before his death (he died on September 10). The author expressed his anger at the Red Army units, which were positioned on the eastern bank of the Vistula, but did not help the insurgents (We are waiting for you, red plague... you will be salvation welcomed with revulsion... we are waiting for you, our eternal enemy... bloody murderer of so many of our brethren...Your red, victorious army has been lying at the bright feet of burning Warsaw and is feeding its soul with bloody pain of a handful of madmen who are dying in the ruins).
Excerpts of the poem were used by a Polish rock band Lao Che in its Warsaw Uprising album (in the song Czerniakow).
We are waiting for you, red plague that you might save us from the black death that, first tearing our country apart, you might be salvation we greet with horros
My final opinion on Rising. The Warsaw Rising is just another rebellion which Poles started happily without thinking of consequences. The former rebellions ended with failures and oppression which were still bearable. The Warsaw Rising ended with the traumatic slaughter. It deeply influenced Poles` perception and way of thinking after the war. So, it wasn`t only communists who persuaded people about the nonsense of such acts. It was pure survival instinct. Even the Church, in breaking moments, advised caution and prevented people from heroism, because the result could be only slaughter again. It happened in 1981, after the martial law was declared and many people were angry at the bishops because they practically ordered people to obey the regime. The wisdom of such action surfaced only a few years later. I come from the intelligentsia family. It was imbued in my mind that the primary aim of a nation is to save its life substance first, then to avoid the massacre of the most valuable people who lead the nation. Avoid throwing pearls to swine, even if it is connected with certain dishonour. There were still many great men who survived 5 years` occupation in Warsaw. In 1944 they were sent to fight tanks. Yes, during the Rising, poets and students were fighting against German criminals - thieves, poachers, murderers. After the Warsaw lesson Poles fought their battle against communism without heroic deeds. Yes, there were a few when people got killled by communist police or army but the individual victims only gave fuel to more resistance. Overall, there was a peaceful resistance, the civil disobedience like in India, for which I admire Poles so much.
Bo, it was just a question to ponder. But it seems you've alredy got all the answers... All seems so clear and easy when looked upon from today's prespective. This is a grave mistake to judge historical events using the knowledge unknown at the time of event. The insurgents of Warsaw '44 assumed they will win, not loose. And the knowledge of Poland being already betrayed and sold to Soviet Russia was not widespread, at least
Low rank insurgents could have assumed victory because they didn`t know the odds.
But that underground commanders assumed victory, with their knowledge of the insurgent armament and ammo supply, as well as the political situation, proves they were lousy officers and bad leaders.
That is why I repeat what I have said many times: I bow my head in deep respect for average soldiers of the Rising whose heroism surpassed everything what the war had seen. I would like to be with them, and one of them, because I am proufoundly Polish in heart.
At the same time I accuse AK commanders in Warsaw of irresponsibility, recklessness and ignorance. Their fatal decision to start the Rising brought disaster to the city and its inhabitants. That is why I claim the leaders should have been taken to court.
It is too late now.
But I consider it is a great scandal that their names are used to name streets in Polish cities and generally they are revered as heroes. That is improper and unfair that they are seen as heroes, they should be remembered as pathetic failures.
What kind of a hero you are if you doom the city to destruction and its residents to certain death?
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Next -we cannot assume those who died during Uprising'44 would live. Many witnesses of that time I have personally known and know tend to believe they would die anyway in the Sovier Russian Gulag system of camps.
Do you think that Russians would deport all Warsaw inhabitants to Gulag?
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Finally - you wrongly assume the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising' 43 was the first rising against German occupants. For instance - the rebellion of this kind took place already in January 1943 in Czestochowa Ghetto. The reaction of Germans was typical - kill all people, level the buildings.
It doesn`t matter really who was first, Warsaw or Czestochowa Ghetto. What matters is the fact that the underground commanders in Warsaw knew how Germans dealt with military rebellions in cities.
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No, neither the Poles fighting in '43 not those fighting in '44 are to blame for the deeds they haven't done.
But leaders are to blame and I will never give up this opinion.
How would you feel if you were a soldier and your commanders told you that victory was at hand and after 2,3 days Warsaw would be liberated? And then, after days, weeks, finally two months, Warsaw wasn`t liberated but what is worse, your family died in a bombed building or was executed by mad Germans? And half of your fellow soldiers died in street fighting or executed in hospitals?
What would you say to your chief commander if you met him then?
How would you feel in the second month of the Rising if, passing through a house or street, you met Warsaw inhabitants who cried at you : GET OUT OF HERE, YOU MURDERER!!! ?? ?
Oh Bo, oh my Cracovian friend! Your views are very well known to me already and I don't intend to exchange the views already exchanged The only thing that astonishes me a little is that you don't include valid arguments into this viewpoint. For instance, the information that the insurgents would go to the street fighting this way or another. As Wiesław Chrzanowski and many other said – such was the mental situation. Please note that W.Chrzanowski was against the rising when it started. Yet he fougght and admits the fight - more chaotic, would start anywway. You know Bo? I am slowly beginning to belive what I have always opposed – that there's some major difference between mentality o f people from Krakow You must be really infected with the Very - Extemely - Central- European- Post- Austro-Hungarian Empire syndrome which results in a predilection to safety coziness... and forming little cozy states of Czechia, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary size etcetera Is there something to it,please tell me
Oh Bo, oh my Cracovian friend! Your views are very well known to me already and I don't intend to exchange the views already exchanged The only thing that astonishes me a little is that you don't include valid arguments into this viewpoint. For instance, the information that the insurgents would go to the street fighting this way or another. As Wiesław Chrzanowski and many other said – such was the mental situation. Please note that W.Chrzanowski was against the rising when it started. Yet he fougght and admits the fight - more chaotic, would start anywway.
How can I stop exchanging well-known views if you force me to do it over and over again? Hoping for a change of my opinion????
I already said somewhere: soldier`s duty is to follow orders. Commanders give orders - we get out hidden weapons and fight. They don`t- we hide our weapons and just wait. The problem is that the commanders gave those tragic orders while they shouldn`t. That makes them responsible for the failure.
Read the memories and diaries of officers who were close to Bór Komorowski. They describe the situation after orders had been issued but there was still time left to the 5pm, zero hour. How Komorowski learnt the truth about Soviet tanks which had been seen on the outskirts of Warsaw. He had thought it was a full scale attack on Warsaw, while it was only reconaissance and tanks retreated. Komorowski was crushed by the news, he realised the Rising was doomed. What does it say about the officer? That he is a very poor one.
For ignorance and unprofessionalism, Rising leaders should be sued, not glorified.
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Yet he fougght and admits the fight - more chaotic, would start anywway.
Do you want to suggest that AK was a bunch of undisciplined civilians who called themselves soldiers? That they would start a rising without orders? Come on, don`t suggest it because you hurt those brave guys....
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You know Bo? I am slowly beginning to belive what I have always opposed – that there's some major difference between mentality o f people from Krakow You must be really infected with the Very - Extemely - Central- European- Post- Austro-Hungarian Empire syndrome which results in a predilection to safety coziness... and forming little cozy states of Czechia, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary size etcetera Is there something to it,please tell me
yes, I suppose there is a difference in mentality. You, Warsavians, for the last 200 years, have acted as if you tried to prove that Warsaw is worth being a capital after Krakow. You constantly put up a show of your immense patriotism, romantic heroism, incredible bravery, etc etc.
The problem is that most of your heroic acts failed. What is the importance of a heroic act which fails? Zero....
And we, as Poles, even can`t advertise our romantic failures. Today only Poles know the difference between two Warsaw Risings: 43 and 44, because foreigners believe there was only Jewish Rising. 20 years after communism the knowledge about Rising 44 is still absent in the West.
Patriotism is very necessary in each nation`s development and survival. However, in my opinion, patriotism ends when you provoke 200.000 victims in two months and a levelled city. It ends and is replaced by utter irresponsibility, headlesness, romantic silliness.
Krakowians had a few brave patriotic acts but on the whole we are more relaxed people. We feel we don`t have to prove anything.
That is why Krakow, though dirty, polluted, spoiled with socialist Nowa Huta, has been preserved in the form as it used to be in the past, while Warsaw is only a poor replica of once`s Paris of the East.
interesting stuff albeit quit incomplete with quite a few assumptions. i have not see a mention of the polish govrnmt in exile which was involved in the 44 uprising. also look up churchill's correspondence with russians on this very matter, as well as his letter to and from the US presidents around that time.. (i don't recall how i came across that interesting info but it may possibly have been when i was researching gen. anders or gen. sikorski) poland once again was sold off or given up on... the failure can not be simply blamed on officers on the ground.. there was way more at play then just them.
But Bo! all I have done was posting one short sentence of intellectual challenge to ponder about in the shelter of everyone's mind, the rest is your reaction. Aren't you too emotional about these long past events? :) But yes your are right frankly speaking – my secret dream is that your viewpoint would soften a little, without getting rid of your healthy criticism of course This is because I like you and I would prefer to have you on the fair side of power, not the dark one dragging us down. It is relatively easy, the change, since as I have started to suspect lately, much of your viewpoint is based on the typical 'capital city' complex. Such attitude is present in many countries, I would call it natural. Well, it's something nice and can give many reasons for joking and friendly teasing, but detrimental to unemotional analysis when one seriously approaches history with it. And coming back to friendly teasing which is indeed much better in this nice time of approaching holidays. I have two points – 1. the real, bold and invincible Krakovians moved with the king to Warsaw, the regressive, withdrawn types stayed . 2. If those who stayed in Krakow would lead Poland instead of Warsaw we would by now have a well preserved certainly, cozy little Duchy of Poland streching from Krakow to Kielce and of respective importance :):)
Oh, I have the third point also - we, I mean my wife, three of my kids that still live with us, my friends and those family members I meet often and discuss things with, we just do nothing but think about how to prove we are better than people of Krakow and Gniezno and Gniew, places where the capital of Poland used to be in the past
But Bo! all I have done was posting one short sentence of intellectual challenge to ponder about in the shelter of everyone's mind, the rest is your reaction. Aren't you too emotional about these long past events? :)
This is your method. You just post one sentence and claim it is innocent pondering. But in fact, one sentence contains many allusions to me and my opinions. I need to react.
Yes, I am emotional about Warsaw because it is my favourite city and I just can`t bear the thought how Warsavians recklessly gave it for destruction.
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But yes your are right frankly speaking – my secret dream is that your viewpoint would soften a little, without getting rid of your healthy criticism of course This is because I like you and I would prefer to have you on the fair side of power, not the dark one dragging us down.
No, tufta, I won`t soften my views on Warsaw Rising. It is just not fair that they are glorified after what happened. 200.000 dead people shout for justice from their graves.
What has always surprised me is your and many Poles` easy approach to the Rising. So, it is possible to cause the death of 200.000 citizens and destruction of the city and go unscathed????
It is really shocking. In every normal country such a leader, if survived, would be prosecuted, or at least would be flushed down in history annals as a lousy politician and soldier.
Poland is the only country where poor leaders, as long as they fight for freedom and independence, are cherished and valued.
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It is relatively easy, the change, since as I have started to suspect lately, much of your viewpoint is based on the typical 'capital city' complex. Such attitude is present in many countries, I would call it natural. Well, it's something nice and can give many reasons for joking and friendly teasing, but detrimental to unemotional analysis when one seriously approaches history with it.
Nooo.... We can joke about Krakow and Warsaw rivalry, but believe me, there is no complex behind my Rising stance.
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I have two points – 1. the real, bold and invincible Krakovians moved with the king to Warsaw, the regressive, withdrawn types stayed .
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2. If those who stayed in Krakow would lead Poland instead of Warsaw we would by now have a well preserved certainly, cozy little Duchy of Poland streching from Krakow to Kielce and of respective importance :):)
That`s too pessimistic.
Besids, I prefer to have a Dutch-like state in Poland than ruins and cemetery. Don`t you know that Holland is one of the richest countries in Europe?
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Oh, I have the third point also - we, I mean my wife, three of my kids that still live with us, my friends and those family members I meet often and discuss things with, we just do nothing but think about how to prove we are better than people of Krakow and Gniezno and Gniew, places where the capital of Poland used to be in the past
interesting stuff albeit quit incomplete with quite a few assumptions. i have not see a mention of the polish govrnmt in exile which was involved in the 44 uprising. also look up churchill's correspondence with russians on this very matter, as well as his letter to and from the US presidents around that time.. (i don't recall how i came across that interesting info but it may possibly have been when i was researching gen. anders or gen. sikorski) poland once again was sold off or given up on... the failure can not be simply blamed on officers on the ground.. there was way more at play then just them.
the failure can not be simply blamed on officers on the ground.. there was way more at play then just them.
well, seems clear, doesn't it
No, guys, not again. I am really sick and tired by this Polish style of looking for culprits everywhere except for themselves. The old song about Poland being sold off is really worn out.
As for allies, they knew nothing about the Rising. The event hadn`t been discussed with them at all and came as a surprise. What is worse, they didn`t have any real power to help the Rising. Even if they had been tougher on Russians and made them accept shuttle flights with aid, that wouldn`t have made the situation dramatically better for the insurgents, it would only prolong the Rising, that`s all.
As for Polish government in exile in London, yes, they pressed on starting the Rising. But Warsaw commanders should have been wiser than some senile politicians far from the theatre of events. Don`t you think?
A military event is started on the order of a military commander and he bears the full responsibility.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 11,454 Location: Krak`s Town, Lesser Poland
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #51 on Aug 6, 2009, 7:38pm »
65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising Polish News, IL Sunday, 19 July 2009
Marking the 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising – "The Rising"
New York, N.Y... Religious ceremonies will open the Polish American community's commemoration of the 65th Anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising which took place from August 1st to October 3rd, 1944.
In the metropolitan New York area, it will be a 12:00 noon mass at St. Stanislaus Bishop & Martyr Church, 107 East 7th Street on Sunday, August 2nd. A reception will follow in the lower auditorium. Located on Manhattan's Lower East Side, St. Stanislaus was the first church established by Polish immigrants in the city.
The Warsaw Uprising was one of the most brutal and bloody events Poland suffered during the entire time it was under German occupation in World War I I, according to Michael (Mietek) Madejski, president of the New York Chapter of Armia Krajowa (The Polish Home Army) which fought the Germans during that two-month battle.
Mr. Madejski is also a member of the Holocaust Documentation Committee of the Polish American Congress.
Polish resistance fighters launched the action on August 1st as German forces were retreating from the Russian front and passing through Poland on their way back to Germany.
The Poles' objective was to recapture their Country's Capitol City and establish it as a symbol of a free and independent post-war Poland for which they sacrificed so much.
But the two-month confrontation – fought on the city's streets, from within its buildings and down in its sewers – ended tragically for the people of Warsaw with 200,000 killed by the time it was all over.
Adolf Hitler was so enraged by the Uprising that he ordered Warsaw bombed and burned to the ground. "It could have turned out to be a momentous victory for the heroes of Warsaw had it not been for the treachery and deceit of the Soviet Army after it arrived at the city's outskirts in pursuit of the fleeing Germans," said Madejski.
As they camped outside, the Russians urged the Polish underground resistance to rise up against the Germans while the Reds were to launch a concurrent attack.
But as the Poles bega n their action, the Communist Army – their so-called allies – did nothing. The Soviets would not even allow U.S. and British planes flying in supplies to use the airfields they controlled.
It was a calculated ploy to hold back and give the Germans enough time to crush the Polish people with their overwhelming military strength. It paved the way for the Communists to eventually take over Poland and subjugate it until the return of democracy in the elections of 1989, according to Madejski.
The Warsaw Uprising of August, 1944 is often confused with the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of April, 1943 which was confined to the Jewish district of the city and on a much smaller scale.
TIMELINE At the end of July of 1944, Poland is in its fifth year of German occupation. On the eastern front, German armies are in full retreat suffering from the Red Army's spring offensive which is approaching Warsaw's eastern suburbs. The liberation of Poland's capital seems to be within reach. [ map ]
world war 2 emblemsGeneral 'Bor' Komorowski, commander of the Polish Underground Home Army (Armia Krajowa, AK), sets the beginning of the uprising in Warsaw against the German occupying forces at 'W-hour'; 5:00 p.m. on August 1, 1944. The uprising is expected to last about a week and have the character of mopping up and disarming operation. The insurgents, however, are unaware that the Germans have decided to defend 'fortress' Warsaw and to counter-attack Red Army forces to the east of the city. [ declarations ].
Warsaw's insurgents an estimated 40,000 soldiers, including 4,000 women, have only enough weapons for 2,500 fighters. They are facing a 15,000-strong German garrison which will grow to a force of 30,000, armed with tanks, planes, and artillery. Day-to-day events [ day-to-day ]. Eyewitness' reports [ radio dispatches ].
| AUG. 1-2 | AUG. 3-4 | AUG. 5-7 | AUG. 8-16 | AUG. 17-23 | AUG. 24-Sep. 2 | SEP. 3-10 | | SEP. 11-23 | SEP. 24-30 | OCT. 1-5 | EPILOGUE |
AUGUST 1–2, 1944 Before 'W-Hour' (W for wybuch, outbreak in Polish), thousands of mobilized Home Army soldiers are moving into their planned concentration points. In several City Centre, Wola and Zoliborz locations, the fighting begins ahead of schedule.
world war 2 postersInsurgents attack 180 German military installations and the town's key strategic positions. After bloody battles, their attacks upon the bridges, airports, train stations and main military and police installations are repelled.
However, significant areas of the city's left bank districts are captured including: the Prudential high-rise building, the main post office, and the state mint. Gas, electric, and water works are in Polish hands. The Warsaw Power Plant in the Riverside district will be restored to operation providing electrical power for hospitals, printing presses, weapon production facilities, and other services until September, 1944. Communication through the crucial west-east front supplying arteries is severed.
In Wola, insurgents capture a large Waffen-SS food and military uniforms warehouse. Many Polish units chose to wear these uniforms embellished with white and red armbands to represent the national colors. The first day of fighting killed 2,000 insurgents and 500 Germans. At nightfall, a network of street barricades is constructed, blocking the most of the city's arteries.
The first issue of Information Bulletin (Biuletyn Informacyjny) newspaper is published. Overall, over 130 different newspapers and periodicals are published in Warsaw during the Uprising. [ newspapers ] The Soviet eastern front offensive stops within twelve miles of Praga, the suburb on Warsaw's right bank; it will not resume until September 11, 1944. The Soviet air force abandons the skies over Warsaw to the Luftwaffe.
AUGUST 3–4
Heinrich Himmler, head of SS and Gestapo, dispatches relief troops to Warsaw headed by SS Lt. Gen. Heinrich Reinefarth and consisting of SS and police units from Poznan, Dirlewanger penal brigade, Kaminski RONA brigade, Azerbaijan infantry battalion, and others. Units of Hermann Göering division are also arriving. [ rona ]
SS General Erich von dem Bach assumes command of all German forces suppressing the Uprising.
Himmler's gives the order to kill all of the city's inhabitants, not take prisoners, and level Warsaw as an example for the rest of Europe.
The first German aerial bombardment by Ju-87 Stuka which will bomb the city daily. The insurgents have no anti-aircraft weapons to defend the city from the attack.
The uprising in Praga fails because of the overwhelming size of the German forces and the end of the Soviet offensive. The remaining insurgents units return underground or crossing into insurgent-controlled areas inside the city. In the liberated districts, civil administrative structures operating within the framework of the Polish Underground State start functioning. [ administration ]
AUGUST 5–7 A major German offensive with fresh relief troops sent to open east-west thoroughfares begins with attacks on the Wola and Ochota districts.
German troops conduct mass executions of approximately 65,000 civilians in the captured districts. Poles, without regard for age or gender, are rounded up house by house and shot. More than 1, 360 patients and staff of Wola and St. Lazarus hospitals are murdered. The Special Group 'verbrennung-kommando' is collecting and burning the bodies. [ map ]
In Mokotow, female civilians are used as shields in front of tanks that are attacking insurgents' positions. This practice will continue throughout the Uprising. [ atrocities ]
The insurgent battalion Zoska, aided by two captured Panther tanks, liberates 350 Polish and European Jewish prisoners from the Goose Farm concentration camp. Many of the freed Jews join the insurgents. [ saving jews ]
Making a round-trip from Brindisi, Italy the first Allied nighttime airdrop of supplies by Halifax and Consolidated B24 Liberator planes reaches Warsaw. [ airlift ]
The siege of Brühl Palace, a government complex near Saxon Garden is lifted by German forces breaking through Wola district. The German Governor of Warsaw region Ludwig Fischer, and Warsaw garrison commander general Reiner Stahel leave the building escorted by tanks. With the fall of Wola, the Old Town quarter is cut off from the City Centre and surrounded.
In Warsaw's Pruszkow suburb, a Durchgangslager 121 selection camp is established. Before the end of 1944, 600,000 deported inhabitants of Warsaw will pass through. In the liberated areas, Scout Postal Service starts distributing mail, newspapers, and messages even to the areas under German control.
AUGUST 8–16 Home Army clandestine radio station 'Lightning' (Blyskawica) starts broadcasting at the frequency of 32.8 and 52.1 meters, followed on August 9 by a civilian Polish Radio at the frequency of 43.4 meters. Both stations will remain on the air until the end of the Uprising.
The first communications links through sewers are opened between isolated districts of Mokotow and City Centre. They will serve as vital transportation and evacuation lines for the duration of the Uprising.
A German leaflet titled 'Ultimatum' and signed by a Supreme Commander is dropped from planes. It urges the Warsaw inhabitants to leave the city, promising accommodations, jobs, and medical care, while threatening 'consequences' to those who disobey the call. [ leaflets ]
The main German offensive against the Old Town starts with 8,000 soldiers; it will continue unabated until the quarter falls on September 2. The offensive's objective is to isolate insurgent defenses, push them away from a strategic area overlooking one of the city's bridges, and liquidate them.
The first of four Home Army newsreels produced during the Uprising is shown to insurgents and civilians in the Palladium theatre.
In City Centre, insurgents repel a major tank attack. Nine tanks and other armed vehicles are destroyed. Heavy fighting occurs around Gdansk train station in an attempt to link up insurgent forces in Zoliborz and Old Town. The attacks are repelled with the use of an armored train.
Germans shut down the water supply after taking over the city's water filtering station. Water rationing and well digging begins. By the end of September, the City Centre district has more than 90 functioning wells. A German B-IV vehicle mine abandoned near an Old Town barricade is brought inside the Polish defensive positions. Its sudden and massive explosion kills over 300 insurgents and civilians.
AUGUST 17–23 German forces introduce new types of weapons into Warsaw: Karl Morser heavy mortar, Wufrrehmen incendiary rockets, and Goliath, a remote-controlled vehicle mine. These weapons will play a crucial role in the German offensive: isolated areas are bombarded non-stop by planes, heavy artillery and rockets, then Goliaths and tanks are sent in, followed by the infantry. [ weapons ]
Von dem Bach issues a proposal to surrender, which is ignored. Additional German forces attack Old Town. Artillery and armored train are shelling the district. During heavy aerial bombing some buildings are completely destroyed; the Polish Bank is struck by 10 bombs.
Insurgents capture isolated German strongholds in the City Centre district. The strategic high-rise telephone exchange building 'PASTA', a significant number of weapons, and 115 German soldiers are captured.
A 750-strong insurgent group breaks into the city's northern Zoliborz district. Another group enters the city from the south. The cargo train station, the Church of Holly Cross, the Police Headquarters, and another telephone exchange building are taken. However, an attack upon the Warsaw University campus, launched with the help of two armored vehicles (one of them insurgent-made 'Kubus') fails. [ kubus ]
Two Home Army attempts to break the siege of Old Town by attacking the Gdansk train station defended by an armored train, fail. A Ju-87 Stuka plane is shot down by a insurgent heavy machine gun crew which violates the official ban not shoot at planes in order to conserve ammunition.
AUG. 24–SEP. 2 The battle for Old Town, which begin on August 14, continues until September 2. With heavy fighting and air bombardment, as often as every 30 minutes, the perimeter of Polish Old Town defenses is reduced to 10 square miles. The State Mint falls into German hands. The fighting becomes ruthless. Some buildings are repeatedly capture, lost , and recaptured; tanks fire at point-blank range.
Insurgents' attempt to break through the Old Town siege into the City Centre overnight fails. Only one group, disguised in Wehrmacht uniforms, marches in three soldier column through the German positions in Saxon Garden into City Centre.
With the Old Town military situation becoming critical, between September 1 and September 2, insurgents escape through sewers into City Centre and Zoliborz. [ sewers ]
Left behind are 7,000 gravely wounded soldiers and 30,000 civilians. Advancing Germans forces execute most of the wounded, old and disabled. Some wounded insurgents are burnt alive in field hospitals.
Polish casualties in Old Town are 30,000 civilian dead and 7,500 dead and wounded insurgents (77 percent), German casualties were 3,900 dead and wounded (54 percent).
After much delay, the governments of Great Britain and the United States grant Allied combatant rights to the Home Army. It was hoped to end the summary executions of Polish POWs by German troops [ combatant ]. The Soviet Union refuses to issue a similar statement.
SEP. 3–10 After the fall of the Old Town, the brunt of the German attack centers on the Riverside district; its objective is to push the insurgents away from the Vistula River. Heavy artillery barrage and air bombardment concentrate on the Warsaw Power Plant—the insurgents' central stronghold. Its destruction cuts off the electricity for the City Centre. After four days of bloody fighting, the Riverside district falls; insurgents and civilians withdraw to City Centre.
Airplanes drop leaflets signed by General von dem Bach urging civilians to leave the city on September 9 and September 10. The Polish Red Cross opens negotiations with Germans regarding the evacuation of elderly, wounded and underage civilians. Several thousand civilians leave the city during a two-hour cease fire. A German offensive concentrates on the northern section of the City Centre, which is shelled by a 600mm mortar every eight minutes, inflicting in heavy casualties. Bombing destroys the City Centre printing plant, interrupting the publishing of Information Bulletin and other newspapers. Civilians flee into City Centre south.
SEP. 11–23 Between September 11 and September 14 Red Army resumes its offensive towards Warsaw. German and Soviet airplanes engage in dog fights over the city. Soviet artillery shells German positions in Praga, Saxon Garden and Okenche Airport.
With the fall of Praga to the Red Army on September 16, German forces evacuate to Warsaw proper and dynamite remaining Vistula bridges. The Red Army is relieved by Soviet-sponsored General Berling's Polish First Army.
Retreating from Praga, German front line troops augment Gen. von dem Bach's forces. To prevent the establishment of bridgeheads, the main German effort concentrates on shattering the resistance in Czerniakow and Zoliborz districts along the the river.
From September 14 to September 16, bloody fighting erupted in Zoliborz with General Hans Lallner 19th Panzer Division. Berling's troops cross the river between September 16-17 in an abortive attempt to link up with Zoliborz insurgents. Civilians are executed in Marymont, a quarter of the Zoliborz district. [ atrocities ]
09/15-09/23. For three consecutive nights, 1,600 soldiers from Berling's army cross the Vistula and join insurgents in the Czerniakow district. The attempted landing between September 17-18 in the Riverside district fails with most of the 1,050 soldiers killed or captured. Heavy fighting in Czerniakow continues until September 23. Some defenders evacuate across the river, others reach the City Centre. Germans execute all captured insurgents and take Berling's soldiers as POWs.
09/18. First and last massive American day-time, high altitude airdrop; insurgents recover 16 tons, or 20 percent of the cargo; the rest falls into German hands. [ airlift ] Heavy bombardment of the City Centre by Karl Morser mortar on September 16 brings massive casualties, including 100 German POWs.
SEP. 24–30 09/24–09/30. Mokotow offensive. Germans attack the suburb of Mokotow, which falls on September 27. Advancing Germans execute wounded soldiers and hospital personnel. The perimeter of the Polish defenses is reduced to several blocks. On September 26, 9,000 civilians leave Mokotow during two-hour cease fire.
Some Mokotow defenders evacuate through sewers to City Centre. About 150 of them exit into German-held territory and are executed.
09/27. Mokotow capitulates after General von dem Bach promises to observe the Geneva Conventions. For the first time during the Uprising, captured Home Army members are treated as POWs.
09/29. Massive attack against Zoliborz with a panzer division and overwhelming number of infantry. Despite insurgents' desperate and bloody fighting, their resistance is broken.
Zoliborz capitulates on September 30. Several dozens communist unit soldiers attempt to cross the Vistula River; only a few succeed. A small groups of Jewish fighters hide in the cellars. A fortnight later, they are whisked out of the city by Home Army paramedics. On September 28 General von dem Bach offers capitulation and the negotiations begin.
OCT. 1–5 On October 1, during a six-hour cease-fire, 8,000 civilians evacuate the City Centre.
General von dem Bach and emissaries of General 'Bor' Komorowski sign the capitulation declaration. All fighting in Warsaw ceases at 8:00 p.m. on October 2, 1944. The terms of the capitulation agreement guarantees Geneva Conventions treatment for insurgents. Only the Wehrmacht, not the SS or Soviet collaborators, are to handle Polish POWs. [ capitulation ]
Final issue of Information Bulletin is published, dated October 4. Last Lighting's radio transmission from Warsaw to London was recorded at 9:40 p.m. on October 4, 1944.
Insurgents prepare for the surrender by destroying weapons, discarding any German uniforms or helmets in their possession, securing the archives, and issuing Home Army IDs to communists units and forged IDs to Jewish fighters.
Fifteen thousand insurgents from all districts went into the captivity, 5,000 wounded are evacuated into different prison camps. Evacuation of wounded insurgents from the field hospitals lasts until the second half of October. All civilians are forced to leave the city. Among them are some insurgents who decided not to go to POW camps and a few designated by the Home Army to continue the struggle. Approximately 55,000 civilians will end up in the concentration camps as dangerous elements, and an additional 150,000 are transported into forced labor camps in Germany. [ uprising cost ]
EPILOGUE Massive and organized looting campaign of the city by Germans began. Delegations from German municipalities were allowed to enter the ruins and strip them of anything that had not already been taken by the Wehrmacht, SS, and Soviet and Ukrainian collaborators.
Postwar Polish assessments claim that 33,000 railway wagons filled with furniture, personal belongings and factory equipment left Warsaw.
After everything of value was carried away, entire blocks of abandoned houses were set on fire. Monuments and government buildings were blown up by special German troops known as Verbrennungs und Vernichtungskommando (burning and destruction detachments). On January 17, 1945, the Red Army and General Berling's Polish First Army enter the deserted ruins of Warsaw.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,813 Location: Warszawa
Re: Warsaw Rising « Reply #53 on Feb 9, 2010, 12:47am »
Hahahahah, I should have expected that! Bo, when you are left without my presence for too long (sorry about that but you know the reasons) you have too much time, dig in ancient threads where everything was said already (and you refused to accept the facts ) and what you dig out? Warsaw Rising! Oh gosh!@#%%$@
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Being a realist puts you off?
I AM a realist.
Being one I think I must change the way of discussing some matters with you
Here we go ............
with a dedication to you my Cracovian friend ......
Barykado nasza Polsko mała idź pod prąd! Na barykadzie na Rejtana jeden, drugi będzie w portki rżnąć.
Hahahahah, I should have expected that! Bo, when you are left without my presence for too long (sorry about that but you know the reasons) you have too much time, dig in ancient threads where everything was said already (and you refused to accept the facts ) and what you dig out? Warsaw Rising! Oh gosh!@#%%$@
I cannot forget the topic. When I recall those leaders who pushed unarmed boys into hopeless fight, I feel like going to General Bór Komorowski Street near my house and tearing down all plaques with his name, trampling on them and finally making a big bonfire of them. The same with other irresponsibe guys who raised hell in Warsaw. It is so unfair they are honoured today as heroes......
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I AM a realist. Being one I think I must change the way of discussing some matters with you Here we go ............ with a dedication to you my Cracovian friend ......
How is it that Cracovians were usually more realistic (read: sensible) than Warsavians when it came to bloodshed?
Lao Che had a good idea to devote the whole album to the Rising. The problem is their music is not my fav genre, I think it is a big misunderstanding to use reagge and blues to sing about the event. Much more suitable would be heavy metal here.
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PS. I am sorry Bo, I cannot say anything new in this subject in a all-serious way...
You will get all-dead serious and your eyes will open wide after I tell you that my views which are over 20 years old now (I remember having discussions about the Rising during late 1980s at the uni) have been confirmed by prof. Jan Chiechanowski. I have kept an interview in GW of 31 July 2009.
The Title: The Rising shouldn`t have been started.
Main arguments in the article:
1. The fight was badly prepared by military leadership and in those conditions had no chance for success.
2. The military leadership never tried to imagine the black scenario: - what if we lose?
3. The idea of the Rising had appeared 10 days before it started.
4. The commander of AK, Home Army, General Bór Komorowski, was a weak officer, who allowed another General, Okulicki, dominate him completely.
5 Okulicki was considered a reckless bravado, irresponsible insubordinate happy-go-lucky by other officers, especially his superiors from military academies. He used to chase women, drank a lot, loved partying.
6. In 1941 he was arrested by Russians for the first time. In the investigation during which he was tortured he revealed many secrets of the Polish main underground organization and gave away the name of its commander, who was arrested in result. Finally, Okulicki wrote a review of the political situation for NKVD and declared the will to continue the cooperation in the future.
7. It is believed that Okulicki`s adventure with NKVD in 1941 greatly influenced his psyche, by starting the Rising he tried to wipe sth out from his biography.
8. In 1944 Okulicki was dropped into occupied Poland, joined the underground and became an informal commander of AK, completely dominating weak Komorowski and his officers. Before the war Komorowski was an average officer, he had only finished high school, hadn`t studied at any academy, hadn`t worked in the Headquarters. With great relief he allowed worldly Okulicki to take over things which were too big for him.
9. It was domineering Okulicki who pushed AK commanders into fighting. He completely ignored the obvious fact that Germans were still very strong and insurgents too poorly armed and equipped. He practised "wishful thinking" with great enthusiasm - believed that Russians would enter Warsaw very soon.
10. The newest research suggests that German losses were even lower than thought before. Only 1570 dead, 9000 wounded. Polish losses - from 150.000 to 200.000.
11. A direct quote: "Complaining that Stalin didn`t behave like Poles wanted him to (namely, attack Warsaw and clear it off German troops) is a perfect example of Polish infantile attitude to reality, this traditional lack of willingness to take responsibility for one`s own decisions. We are always cheated on or betrayed. The Rising was the consequence of one man`s erroneous decision and his ambitions. The Rising didn`t have to start. Claiming that young AK soldiers desired to go to combat is a useless alibi. "
Chiechanowski`s book on the Rising is available on the Net:
A final comment: I have found a nice phrase somewhere: The Rising of Stupid Generals.
So what, Bo? Do you think that I, or anyone in the forum is not aware of your views about the problem?
I am, Bo. I swear, I am.
And you know it. So, if you bring the issue back into current discussion, there must be something behind that. I, your virtual-space friend, will never fail you and I am ready to help as much as I can Here's my try. There's nothing you can find 'new' for you on the side of the 'critics'. (Ciechanowski's views are not new in general and not new to me personaly). And there's nothing new for you to be found in a logical, rational visions of today (read: ahistoric visions). There's a lot new to be found on the 'other' side. (As I understand you refused to read the books from 'the other side'. I.e. Kinderszenen by Jarosław Rymkiewicz). I am sure only this way you will be closer to soothing your mind which rightly an d correctly sees a discrepancy between lost rising and its victorious meaning. And a lot is to be found in the imponderabilia layer. In a mystical, uncatchable layer. Which layers are as important as the strict, accountable ones. They were extremely important in 1944 - remember what Bartoszewski said! And they miracolously remained important today... And my conclusions before a little presentation is something Władysław Bartoszewski and other participants of the Rising'44 say (inlcuding my family members) : the generals really had no choice, thus their drama, uprising would start this way or another.
A final comment: I have found a nice phrase somewhere: The Rising of Stupid Generals.
So what, Bo? Do you think that I, or anyone in the forum is not aware of your views about the problem?
I am, Bo. I swear, I am.
Don`t forget that each day or week new guests visit the Polish forum. Do you think they commence their visit with a thorough review of old posts??
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So, if you bring the issue back into current discussion, there must be something behind that. I, your virtual-space friend, will never fail you and I am ready to help as much as I can
There is sth behind, for sure. I have just decided to use the article which I have kept since July 2009.
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Here's my try. There's nothing you can find 'new' for you on the side of the 'critics'. (Ciechanowski's views are not new in general and not new to me personaly).
His views were new to me. I had not read his publications before. To be honest, I have not read too much criticism. Most what I read on the rising was either neutral or apologetic. My views are production of my own mind`s analysis, not based on any critical works.
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And there's nothing new for you to be found in a logical, rational visions of today (read: ahistoric visions). There's a lot new to be found on the 'other' side.
I am too old to change my opinion which has become stable since 1980s. Sorry.
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(As I understand you refused to read the books from 'the other side'. I.e. Kinderszenen by Jarosław Rymkiewicz).
Yes, I refused to read the book after reading an interview with the author and excerpts from his book. As I am a fairly intelligent guy, I realised what kind of book it is.
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I am sure only this way you will be closer to soothing your mind which rightly an d correctly sees a discrepancy between lost rising and its victorious meaning.
Hmm, victorious meaning? If you see victorious meaning in 200.000 corpses and a destroyed city, I do admire your optimism.
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And a lot is to be found in the imponderabilia layer. In a mystical, uncatchable layer. Which layers are as important as the strict, accountable ones.
The problem is that I am sick and tired of those mystical Polish layers which produce such results as the Rising did.
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They were extremely important in 1944 - remember what Bartoszewski said! And they miracolously remained important today...
Today? My oldest son is 10 but looks 12. The youngest soldier who took part in combat during the Rising was 12 - Witold Modelski. He died in action. Would you like my or your son to take part in such a senseless fight? What victorious meaning do you mean? The grave of your son? Or even no grave at all?
Sorry but I refuse to be influenced by this eternal Polish heroism which in fact is silly recklessness. I hope Poles have been cured of it at last, as the story of Polish victory over communism proves it.
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And my conclusions before a little presentation is something Władysław Bartoszewski and other participants of the Rising'44 say (inlcuding my family members) : the generals really had no choice, thus their drama, uprising would start this way or another.
Hey, it is unfair to talk about AK soldiers like that because you suggest they were the bunch of undisciplined bandits as Germans called them, and they were ready to start the fight ignoring their commanders` orders.
Of course they weren`t and that is why I can`t accept this excuse. The Rising wouldn`t have started without direct orders from the leadership. And it was generals` duty to stop young hotheads from irresponsible actions, but they prefered to practise wishful thinking for which people of Warsaw paid a terrible price.
Thanks for those songs. Great. Much better music than Lao Che.
My pleasure! BTW. IS included. I didn't include Kapela Czerniakowska or Stanisław Grzesiuk as I wanted to present people who were born long after 1944, who with their art show that they want to stick to the ideas connected with the Rising.
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My views are production of my own mind`s analysis, not based on any critical works.
That's fine but with so extremely strong views on any matter - it is rare and risky not to confront them with the first-hand witnesses' opinions etc., historians and so on.
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I am too old to change my opinion
This is not a virtue, Bo... I have noticed you are not prone to take into account anything which is not in line with your personal views. For instance, most of the problems you have raised were answered in this forum. Facts were presented to prove that some of these problems are problematic, if not directly produced by the post-war propaganda. For instance the child-soldiers problem. Let me add one link here to a webpage by another witness of that time. You might like not to read it , so I hesitate to present it, frankly, but anyway - read it or not. http://www.anszyd.webpark.pl/warszawskiedzieci_ryc.htm
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Yes, I refused to read the book after reading an interview with the author and excerpts from his book. As I am a fairly intelligent guy, I realised what kind of book it is.
I assure you that Jarosław Rymkiewicz is a very intelligent person. But people do not consist only of intelligence, but of much much more. That is what this book is about. But do as you wish, Bo! Don't read it!
Bo, please don't understand me wrong. You are fully entitled to your opinions of course, rigid, stable or whatever. I don't oppose that you present them as often as you wish in your own forum or anywhere else. But I think I may have one request to you. Could you do it, without invoking my name in front? All I had to say i have already said, if the new books, facts, will surface I will inform you and others. But putting my name in front with the adnotaion that - "who is not with Bo is not a realist" is not a good way of dragging me into discussion.
BTW. IS included. I didn't include Kapela Czerniakowska or Stanisław Grzesiuk as I wanted to present people who were born long after 1944, who with their art show that they want to stick to the ideas connected with the Rising.
Oh, I see. Despite my alleged intelligence, I didn`t catch the idea.
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That's fine but with so extremely strong views on any matter - it is rare and risky not to confront them with the first-hand witnesses' opinions etc., historians and so on.
Why extremely strong? Are they really so outstandingl? I met a few people who share my opinion on the Rising.
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This is not a virtue, Bo... I have noticed you are not prone to take into account anything which is not in line with your personal views.
Sometimes I am like that, yes, especially when I see no room for any compromise, like in case of the Rising. In other matters I tend to be agreeable, and ready to achieve compromise. Here - not. I just feel it is not fair to discuss compromise over 200.000 dead bodies, don`t you think?
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For instance, most of the problems you have raised were answered in this forum. Facts were presented to prove that some of these problems are problematic, if not directly produced by the post-war propaganda.
And they will be talked about over and over again because the Rising got stuck in my mind. Also, there is a need to constantly remind people of what the Rising was - a tragic mistake caused by the ambitions of one irresponsible man.
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For instance the child-soldiers problem. Let me add one link here to a webpage by another witness of that time. You might like not to read it , so I hesitate to present it, frankly, but anyway - read it or not. http://www.anszyd.webpark.pl/warszawskiedzieci_ryc.htm
I know the metaphor of Warsaw Children but thanks anyway.
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I assure you that Jarosław Rymkiewicz is a very intelligent person. But people do not consist only of intelligence, but of much much more. That is what this book is about. But do as you wish, Bo! Don't read it!
Thanks.
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But I think I may have one request to you. Could you do it, without invoking my name in front? All I had to say i have already said, if the new books, facts, will surface I will inform you and others. But putting my name in front with the adnotaion that - "who is not with Bo is not a realist" is not a good way of dragging me into discussion.
Like a pre-war rule for the elite classes - the lady`s name should appear in the newspapers only three times: to announce her birthday, marriage and death. Any other cases of having one`s name mentioned were improper and implied scandal.
OK, your name won`t be dragged through the gutter in this thread anymore.
However, let me excuse myself. I used it to answer your last post saying: I must say I haven't observed such an attitude in this forum till now. I had left it without a comment for a long time and the opportunity came up just recently.
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