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Post by pjotr on Dec 7, 2010 14:07:48 GMT 1
No future for Dutch Orthodox Jews’ Prominent VVD politician Frits Bolkestein believes there is no future for ' active' Jews in the Netherlands. The conservative politician made his remarks in an interview with freesheet De Pers. In the interview, Mr Bolkestein says that when he talks about active Jews he means those who are recognisable as such, for instance Orthodox Jews. The former EU Commissioner says there is no future for this group in the Netherlands because of " the anti-Semitism among Dutchmen of Moroccan descent, whose numbers keep growing''. He feels that this group of Jews should encourage their children to emigrate to either the United States or Israel, because he has little confidence in the effectiveness of the government's proposals for fighting anti-Semitism. Earlier, Mr Bolkestein made similar statements in Het Verval ( The Decline) by Manfred Gerstenberg, a recently published book about Jews in the Netherlands. Frits Bolkestein was political leader of the current coalition party VVD between 1990 en 1998. He later served as European Commissioner from 1999 until 2004. © Radio Netherlands Worldwide
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Post by pjotr on Dec 7, 2010 14:08:15 GMT 1
Frits Bolkestein Mr. Bolkestein is a very realistic, pragmatic conservative-liberal Dutch politician, and in non means an enemy of the jews. He was the first one (before Pim Fortuyn and Geert Wilders) who as a democratic and respected ' centrist' (centre-right) politician warned about the negative side of immigration. Without xenophobia, islamophobia or far right tendencies. He dared to speak about the consequences of immigration and the lack of integration and assimilation in 1989/1990 when it was politically incorrect to do so. He was the Parliamentary leader in the House of Representatives and the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy party (VVD) leader in the ninetees (May 1, 1990 - July 30, 1998. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frits_Bolkestein / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frits_Bolkesteinen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Plumber / pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polski_hydraulik
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Post by pjotr on Dec 7, 2010 14:08:39 GMT 1
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Post by tufta on Dec 7, 2010 18:24:17 GMT 1
this group of Jews should encourage their children to emigrate to either the United States or Israel, because he has little confidence in the effectiveness of the government's proposals for fighting anti-Semitism. Pieter, what will happen to those Dutch citizens of Jewish origin who will decline to emmigrate? If the state of Netherlands will accept it is not competent to look after safety of all citizens how will that influence the country standing as a member of international community, including organizations it belongs to? |
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Post by tufta on Dec 7, 2010 18:34:15 GMT 1
Well, the news were thought-provoking, Pieter... it also came to my mind, what those in Western Europe who seem fed up with EU propose instead? Coming back to border control, protectionism (read: economy wars), nationalism occasionally peaking into chauvinism, use of military power as an argument (occacionallly peaking into war). Are those people sane or just so terribly ignorant?
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Post by pjotr on Dec 7, 2010 19:35:15 GMT 1
Dutch documentry shows the intimidating and anti-semitic behavior of a group of Maroccans towards two recognisable jews that pass (orthodox jews). They shout "Jew", "Jew" and bring the Hitler salute!
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Post by pjotr on Dec 7, 2010 20:33:26 GMT 1
this group of Jews should encourage their children to emigrate to either the United States or Israel, because he has little confidence in the effectiveness of the government's proposals for fighting anti-Semitism. Pieter, what will happen to those Dutch citizens of Jewish origin who will decline to emmigrate? If the state of Netherlands will accept it is not competent to look after safety of all citizens how will that influence the country standing as a member of international community, including organizations it belongs to? Tufta, I honestly don't know. What I do know that they will not be forced to leave, but they are harassed by Muslim thugs and non-Muslim thugs alike. The police has no means to stop this, because there are to many people who have this bad behavior. In large parts of (Western-) Europe today it is simply unpleasent to be an othodox jew, from Sweden to France and from London to Berlin. I don't know how the situation is in central- and Eastern Europe. But probably jews are better of in Poland then in the Netherlands, France, Belgium, Denmark and Sweden, where you have agressive Muslim minorities and agressive Native Hooligans. It has a bad influence on the image of the Netherlands as a member of international community, including organizations it belongs to. And it will get worse if nothing changes. Both anti-semitism and islamophobia are growing. Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 7, 2010 20:46:57 GMT 1
Well, the news were thought-provoking, Pieter... it also came to my mind, what those in Western Europe who seem fed up with EU propose instead? Coming back to border control, protectionism (read: economy wars), nationalism occasionally peaking into chauvinism, use of military power as an argument (occacionallly peaking into war). Are those people sane or just so terribly ignorant? Tufta, Unfortunately I fear that you are right. Nationalism peaking into chauvinism. I fear that an increasing isolationalism and a wrong kind of provincialism will appear. It is a difficult time for migrants, expats and people of mixed heritage in Western-Europe. Why? Because part of your heritage is ridiculed or seen as alien. At home here for instance I am being bussy with my Polishness, the English speaking Polish culture Forums and Polish news. Outside I hardly ever speak about Poland, because most people don't have a link or interest in Poland. And I avoid negative discussions about Eastern-Europe (because altough I consider Poland as Central-Europe most people here speak about Poland as Eastern-Europe and Poles as Eastern-Europeans). I don't hide my Polish roots, but it is a fact that Poland seldom is an issue. Even Germany which is so close here is hardly ever a topic. People are really living their regional and national lives. The Dutch or Netherlands identity and the local and regional idenities are more important than the EU, European unity or interest in other European nations. They want to to tear down the cultural infrastructure. Culture is not important, has no value to them, so foreign culture has no value either. Yes, I am a pessimist, because I am a realist. My only hope is my family, my friends, my dear colleages, and the things that interest me and I will keep (they won't be able to take it from me: My art, my fondness and connection to the Dutch culture and Cosmopolitan international orientation, next to my Dutch Patriotism). Pieter |
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Post by tufta on Dec 7, 2010 22:13:27 GMT 1
Pieter - very fine, frank, straightforward thoughts of yours. It is really sad that so many people in the West don't understand that we (Europe) mean nothing while divided, we are a no-power, a third-word without a voice that counts. A paradox of history is that from all the 'old EU' it is only Germany which seems to still understand that and acts accordingly.
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Post by pjotr on Dec 8, 2010 12:21:09 GMT 1
Pieter - very fine, frank, straightforward thoughts of yours. It is really sad that so many people in the West don't understand that we (Europe) mean nothing while divided, we are a no-power, a third-word without a voice that counts. A paradox of history is that from all the 'old EU' it is only Germany which seems to still understand that and acts accordingly. Unfortunately I think you are right again? Germany is like you say here, but that might change too? But I hope that Germany will stay the way it is, a positive force in the presence! With a good government, good chancler and a good foreign affairs minister. Unfortunately the Netherlands is very polarised, and the Dutch diplomacy, foreign affairs and the Dutch role in Europe will probably will be not that important in the comming period. Only in the fields of Research & Development, Financial markets, watermanagement, trade (import & export) we will keep our position. But on the area's of culture, education, the sciences (old and new sciences), diplomacy, cultural exchange, literature and music (classical music) we will not play a role in the near future. Fine art, culture and higher education is not seen as important over here. Just like Development aid, health care and defense. The government and mainly Geert Wilders chauvinistic Nationalist Isolationalist PVV shows that we are a small minded country (In My opinion). Stricter migration laws, more integration, being slightly less tolerant, Okay, but minimalizing your own culture, and stressing that culture is not important shows stupidity, small mindness and a petit bourgeois, nouveau riche low middle class and peasent mentality. I am sad and pessimistic about the Dutch political system and society, not about the Dutch people, culture and institutions that work. The left made great mistakes in the seventees, now the right is making great mistakes in the early 21th century. Ofcourse fine art and culture will survive, eventhough they want to destroy it. Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 8, 2010 16:23:38 GMT 1
Coming back to border control, protectionism (read: economy wars), nationalism occasionally peaking into chauvinism, use of military power as an argument (occacionallly peaking into war). Are those people sane or just so terribly ignorant? They are just so terribly ignorant! |
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Post by tufta on Dec 8, 2010 16:33:45 GMT 1
I think that the main point 'the isolationist party' misses is that they will not be able to maintain their level of life with what they preach...
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Post by pjotr on Dec 8, 2010 16:42:26 GMT 1
What those in Western Europe who seem fed up with EU propose instead? Coming back to border control, protectionism (read: economy wars), nationalism occasionally peaking into chauvinism, use of military power as an argument (occacionallly peaking into war). Tufta, I hope and maybe even pray for a majority of the common sense, for a moderate, centre-right, pragmatic, cooperative, diplomatic, sensible, realistic people like for instance Tufta and Bonobo in Poland, PO supporters, who are opposed to the (far) left, chauvinistic nationalism and Populism. The Centre-right in my opinion is the majority in Europe. And I hope that in this difficult period in Western-Europe in the sense of Economical decline, cultural crisis and an internal idenity crisis (the clash between provincial chauvinism and isolationalism -narrow minded Nationalism- and an enlightened international cosmopolitanism -of which in my opinion the conservative-liberal " Patriots" of our countries are part of- and the supporters of a United Europe, who see the benefits of a growing European innermarket which brings prosperity and is of financial-economical importance for the memberstates). I hope that the present political climate and extreme polarisation in my country will have a temporal nature. I hope that the Dutch PO, the VVD, will leave it's PiS (LPR) position (as being hijacked by the PVV and it's rightwing) and move back to the political centre on its old centre-right wing position. That this reasonable party will be released of this coalition of Rightwing- and Leftwing Populist (PVV-Wilders) ideas. I hope that this coalition government will collapse soon. That there will be new elections in which the reasonable " Old" politics will regain it's power. Even when that will mean a new government of VVD and CDA (Christian-democrats) without the PVV (endorsment). Even a centrist government of VVD-CDA-Labour would have my preference above this cabinet. I think that there is room for a new centrist, liberal (in the European sense) in the centre of Dutch politics. Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 8, 2010 20:34:42 GMT 1
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Post by tufta on Dec 8, 2010 21:57:35 GMT 1
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Post by tufta on Dec 8, 2010 22:04:03 GMT 1
and 'the Northerners' www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/418891-nordic-countries-huddle-togetherMy opinion - these are just different incarnations of a trend to make divisions. Central Europe the way Czechs see it (nice cosy place which is suddenly an island in a distant ocea  , Nordic Union (of 25 million people...) do not have a slightest chance to remain a player in the 21 century world. |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 9, 2010 19:08:54 GMT 1
The Nordic Union will only have a chance if they import European masses and "Scandianvianise" them in a Northernisation process! I know that there is an immigration of Dutch people to Norway and Sweden, mainly agrarian immigration. But that is not a real mass immigration, because we don't have that may farmers left. And much Dutch farmer sons and daughters are becoming Dutch civilians that study and live in cities. (They choose other jobs than their fathers and mothers)
Like Poland will grow with Slav immigration, integration and assimilation, and Israel with the influx of the jews of the world!
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, Nordic Union (of 25 million people...) do not have a slightest chance to remain a player in the 21 century world.