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Post by Bonobo on Feb 4, 2008 8:41:18 GMT 1
Recent research in the genetic heritage of Poles and their neighbours has shown that Poles and Russians share about 50% of the same genes. It is more than Poles share with their another neighbour, Germans.
It is justified to say that Poles and Russians stem from the same root and only silly twists of history made us opponents most of the time.
Why? The main reason behind Polish Russian contest was, I believe, religion. Poles adopted Roman Catholicism, Russians had their Orthodox Church. In times when religion played a crucial role it was really hard to reach some compromise.
Also disputes over Eastern lands and who should control them mattered.
The competition to take control started as early as in 1018.
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Post by Bonobo on Feb 17, 2008 21:53:18 GMT 1
In 1018, the Polish king, Boleslaw Braveheart, summoned by the ruler of Rus who has just lost his power, organizes a military campaign in the East and goes as far as Kiev. For today`s Russians the city was the place where Russian nation came into being. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Expedition_%281018%29 The King Boleslaw Chrobry with the Rus ruler Swiatopelk at the Golden Gate in Kiev.At the request of his son-in-law Sviatopolk I of Kiev, the Polish duke intervened in Kievan affairs: not only did he expel Yaroslav the Wise from Kiev, but possibly he deployed his troops in Rus' capital for about half a year. During this campaign Poland re-annexed the Red Strongholds, later called Red Ruthenia, lost by Bolesław's father in 981. The king is holding a sword. It is Szczerbiec, the Notched Sword. The legend says the king hit the Golden Gate while leaving Kiev. It is not true because the Gate was constructed long after Chrobry`s arrival to the city. ****It is a sword that was traditionally used in the coronation ceremony of Polish kings. It is the last surviving part of the Polish Crown Jewels - the crowns and other items were lost during numerous wars in the past. Although according to the legend it was used by Bolesław I Chrobry (Boleslaus the Brave, 992-1025), who notched it when hitting the Golden Gate of Kiev in 1018, it was most probably made in the 12th century, possibly for prince Konrad of Masovia. The Golden Gate was constructed in 1037, some time after Chrobry went to Kiev. Szczerbiec was used during coronations of Polish kings from the time of Władysław Łokietek to the time of partitions (around 1792). After the partitions, it was first captured by Prussians, who in 1796 took it to Berlin. Sold by a private collector, the sword went to Ermitage Museum in Sankt Petersburg. Finally in 1928 the Soviet Union gave it back to Poland, in accordance with the Treaty of Riga. At the outbreak of the World War II in 1939 it was evacuated from Poland to France. Then in 1940 it was evacuated to Canada, together with the gold deposits of the Polish banks. It came back to Poland in 1959. It is currently on display in the Wawel Royal Castle Museum, Kraków.****  |
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Post by falkenberg on Apr 3, 2008 20:03:48 GMT 1
Thanks for the topic.
Russia, Russia, Holy Mother Great Russia.
I can try to persuade myself that we can and should be in familiar relations with Russia. I'm trying to persuade myself that the partitions, destrution of Greek Catholic Church, Soviets-German alliance, stalinism and such funny topics are j u s t a part of history now. I did not capture Creml neither were new generations of Russia killing Poles. Imagine all the Slavs living in a harmony....
And one day I see exposition of Katyn photos with exhumated bodies, I read that all those boys were from inteligentsia, had done hard studies... And wonder if a hate is everlasting.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 3, 2008 21:31:16 GMT 1
Thanks for the topic. Russia, Russia, Holy Mother Great Russia. I can try to persuade myself that we can and should be in familiar relations with Russia. I'm trying to persuade myself that the partitions, destrution of Greek Catholic Church, Soviets-German alliance, stalinism and such funny topics are j u s t a part of history now. I did not capture Creml neither were new generations of Russia killing Poles. Imagine all the Slavs living in a harmony.... And one day I see exposition of Katyn photos with exhumated bodies, I read that all those boys were from inteligentsia, had done hard studies... And wonder if a hate is everlasting. I had similar thoughts in your age. But we cannot let hate control us. It is wrong and unchristian. Polish officers and intelligentsia perished at the hands of Russian communists, true, but so did millions of Russians who were against or even not enough supportive of the system. We need to cope with it. Even if today Russian courts refuse to look into the matter or name the massacre by its name - war crime.
Katyn executioners named
thenewpl
15.12.2008
The Russian Memorial Society NGO, investigating the "Katyn
massacre", has discovered a list of names of Soviet secret agents
responsible for murdering thousands of Polish officers in 1940.
The man in charge of the mass murder is thought to be personally
responsible for the death of 50,000 people over a long and bloody
career.
Researcher Nikita Pietrov has got hold of a list of officers of the
NKVD - a forerunner to the KGB - who participated in the Katyn
massacre, where up to 22,000 Polish officers were murdered in prison camps and forests in Russia.
The head executioner turns out to be the then 45-year-old Vasilij
Blochin. Making his first kill of Russian dissidents in 1927 he went
on to execute people regularly for the next 29 years, causing the
death of an estimated 50,000.
Records indicate that Blochin was especially trusted by Stalin, who
used him to eliminate many of his enemies, real and imagined. The
Katyn massacre was among the executioner' s special tasks for which he received considerable reward once Stalin signed their fate in the spring of 1940.
Researcher Nikita Pietrov claims that the Soviet secret police
rewarded not only high ranking officers involved in the murders, but
also drivers, typists and ordinary soldiers.
The Soviets initially claimed that that Nazi soldiers were
responsible for the Katyn massacre. But after an investigation in
the 1990s, Moscow admitted that it was in fact the NKVD who were
responsible but have since refused, both to label the massacre
as `genocide', or carry out prosecutions against those still alive
who took part.
Nikita Pietrov of NGO Memorial Society is trying to establish and
reveal the names of all Katyn executioners who are still being
protected against war crime trials by the Russian authorities.s. ================================================
Russian Supreme Court upholds closure of Katyn massacre case
MOSCOW, January 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Supreme Court upheld on
Thursday the closure of the investigation into the so-called Katyn
case, in which several thousand Polish POWs were executed in western Russia's Katyn forest in 1940.
The court thereby turned down an appeal by relatives of the victims.
Over 20,000 Polish officers, police and civilians taken prisoner
during the 1939 partitioning of Poland by the Soviet Union and Nazi
Germany were massacred in the Katyn forest, as well as in prisons and other locations, by the NKVD, the forerunner of the KGB.
The judge said the 1926 Criminal Code of the Russian Soviet
Federative Socialist Republic should be applied to the crime
committed in 1940. Under this code, prosecution cannot be
administered if more than ten years have passed since the crime.
In his ruling, the judge also noted that the case was closed in
September 2004 because any possible indictees were long dead.
Another reason given for not reviewing the case was that only 22 POWs have been identified from the 1,803 sets of remains discovered, and no kinship to the suitors has been established.
Anna Stavitskaya, who represents relatives of the victims, said they
would appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.
The Strasbourg-based court last year received pleas from two Poles
demanding that Russia recognize those killed in the Katyn massacre as war crime victims, and grant access to documents on the massacre.
The Soviet Union for a long time accused Germany of executing the
Polish prisoners. However, in 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev officially
admitted that Soviet secret police were responsible for the massacre. |
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Post by jkustelski on Apr 26, 2008 14:34:19 GMT 1
Thanks for the topic. Russia, Russia, Holy Mother Great Russia. I can try to persuade myself that we can and should be in familiar relations with Russia. I'm trying to persuade myself that the partitions, destrution of Greek Catholic Church, Soviets-German alliance, stalinism and such funny topics are j u s t a part of history now. I did not capture Creml neither were new generations of Russia killing Poles. Imagine all the Slavs living in a harmony.... And one day I see exposition of Katyn photos with exhumated bodies, I read that all those boys were from inteligentsia, had done hard studies... And wonder if a hate is everlasting. I had similar thoughts in your age. But we cannot let hate control us. It is wrong and unchristian. We need to cope with it. Polish officers and intelligentsia perished at the hands of Russian communists, true, but so did millions of Russians who were against or even not enough supportive of the system. I agree that as Christians we must try to forgive, but we must never forget the atrocities at the hands of the communists:  This site contains a memorial for those victims of the Katyn massacre: www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw.html |
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 8, 2009 21:04:47 GMT 1
Russian military historian blames Poland for WWII
Thursday June 4 2009
MIKE ECKEL
MOSCOW (AP) As the Kremlin presses a campaign to recast Russia's 20th century history in a more favorable light, a research paper published Thursday on the Defense Ministry's Web site blamed Poland for starting World War II.
The unorthodox reading of history appears to be the latest effort by Russian historians to defend the Soviet Union and its leaders, especially their role in what Russians call the Great Patriotic War.
Russia has angrily rejected claims that a Stalin-era famine in Ukraine amounted to genocide, and Russia's Supreme Court recently turned down an appeal to re-open an investigation into the massacre by Soviet secret police of Polish military officers and intellectuals in Russia's Katyn forest during World War II.
The generally accepted view is that Poland was a victim rather than the aggressor in the conflict, and that Adolf Hitler's 1939 invasion of Poland marked the start of the war.
Many Western historians believe Hitler was encouraged to invade by the treaty of non-aggression signed by Moscow and Berlin, called the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, which secretly divided eastern and western Europe into spheres of influence.
Hitler's pact with the Soviet dictator Josef Stalin was signed on Aug. 24, 1939. Germany invaded Poland Sept. 1.
Blaming Poland would deny Russia played a role in starting the war by sealing the secret accord.
The research paper posted on Russia's Defense Ministry Web site is not an official government statement. But the author is listed as Col. Sergei Kovalyov, director of the scientific-research department of military history, part of the Institute of Military History of the Ministry of Defense.
A person who answered the phone at the Defense Ministry press office refused to comment, but said a statement would be posted on the Web site soon.
Ministry spokesman Col. Alexander Drobyshevsky told the Interfax news agency that analytical articles posted on the ministry's Web site do not necessarily reflect the ministry's official position.
The paper, titled "Fictions and Falsifications in Evaluating the USSR's Role On the Eve of World War II," recounts how in the run-up to Germany's invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, Hitler demanded that Poland turn over control of the city of Danzig as well as a land corridor between Germany and the territory now known as Kaliningrad.
"Everyone who has studied the history of World War II without bias knows that the war began because of Poland's refusal to satisfy Germany's claims," he writes.
Kovalyov called the demands "quite reasonable." He observed: "The overwhelming majority of residents of Danzig, cut off from Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, were Germans who sincerely wished for reunification with their historical homeland."
Kovalyov, who works in St. Petersburg, could not be immediately located for comment.
Arseny Roginsky, a historian with the rights group Memorial, said Kovalyov was entitled to his opinion "and he shouldn't be thrown in prison for that."
"But if this indeed reflects the position of the government — in as much that it appeared on the Web site of the Ministry of Defense — then this is indeed dangerous and shameful," he said.
Polish government officials had no immediate comment; much of the country on Thursday was marking the 20th anniversary of the collapse of communism in Poland.
Last month, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev announced the creation of 28-member commission to investigate "the falsification of historical facts and events aimed to disparage the international prestige of the Russian Federation."
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's United Russia party is drafting legislation that would make it a crime to belittle the Soviet contribution to victory in World War II.
Both moves were widely criticized by liberals as efforts to whitewash Soviet era abuses.
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Post by valpomike on Jun 9, 2009 0:46:03 GMT 1
But we Polish, know better. And this is just like the Russians and next the Germans will blame it on us, also.
Mike
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 9, 2009 5:45:39 GMT 1
what do you mean next? they blamed poland way before the russians ever thought of it.
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Post by valpomike on Jun 9, 2009 16:43:01 GMT 1
Do you think the public will believe this junk they put out, in the slanted press. Here in the U.S.A. they do. They think if it is in the press, or on T.V. it is true.
But many of us know better.
Mike
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 9, 2009 21:57:25 GMT 1
here in the USA people sure do.. i am really surprised and saddened.. i had to get into an argument on another unrelated forum when someone posted the der spiegel article blaming Poland for the death camps.. many americans saw that as reasonable.. un-freaking-believable.
i think english have a fascination with the russ so they tend to believe them too.. but then none of them think they did anything wrong when they didn't hold up their end of the british-polish prewar pact.. i am amazed every time i read that kind of crap.
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Post by valpomike on Jun 9, 2009 22:18:46 GMT 1
Few here in the U.S.A. may believe, but most don't.
Again, it is due to the slanted reporting we get.
Mike
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 9, 2009 22:29:45 GMT 1
Few here in the U.S.A. may believe, but most don't. Again, it is due to the slanted reporting we get. Mike that's what i thought too.. but the truth is that very, very smart people take the germans at their word. not so much the russians yet. unfortunately there are elements in germany as well as russia that are just dangerous.. revisionist history is just a lie.. and we know where lies can lead.. sieg heil. |
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Post by tufta on Jun 10, 2009 13:38:01 GMT 1
Do you think the public will believe this junk they put out, in the slanted press. The public will believe whatever lie, if it is repeated constantly for a long period of time. And if initially the lie is first mixed with truth, and then gradually there's more lie than truth - the effect is guaranteed. This are the very basics of infowar. It goes on constantly and will go on. |
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Post by tufta on Jun 10, 2009 13:45:13 GMT 1
here in the USA people sure do.. i am really surprised and saddened.. i had to get into an argument on another unrelated forum when someone posted the der spiegel article blaming Poland for the death camps.. many americans saw that as reasonable.. un-freaking-believable. i think english have a fascination with the russ so they tend to believe them too.. but then none of them think they did anything wrong when they didn't hold up their end of the british-polish prewar pact.. i am amazed every time i read that kind of crap. Loco, unfortunately many Poles help them unwittingly... One first instance is the usage of a this starnge 'nazi' word in place of 'Germans'. In effect there are Jews and there are Poles and there are Nazi who killed the Jews. Plus 'Polish death camps' (even in German press!!). The effect is obvious... Unfortunately Poland for so many years had no independent government and free institutions (of the IPN kind) to defend the every simple truths. This time was used by others very well. |
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 25, 2009 19:01:47 GMT 1
Russian TV - 'Poland planned to invade USSR'
thenews.pl
22.06.2009
Ribbentrop – Molotow pact, August 1939Russian state television has broadcast a report in which it accuses Poland of collaboration with Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union.
The report says that the government in Warsaw was in a secret alliance with Nazi Germany and japan to invade the Soviet Union.
Today Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians celebrate National Remembrance and Mourning Day to commemorate victims of WW II, popularly known as the Great Patriotic War. To mark the occasion, as well as the 70th anniversary of the signing of Ribbentrop – Molotow pact, Russian television has broadcast a reportage which claims to reveal a "great mystery".
The journalists claim that it was not Molotow's intention to sign the pact with the Third Reich - an agreement which effectively sealed Poland fate - but he was forced to do so because the USSR was in danger from an invasion by Poland.
They cite documents, yet to be made public, which "prove" that Poles conspired with the Nazis and planned to attack the Soviet Union. Japan was also involved in the plot and its role was to invade the eastern borders of the USRR.
The report "clearly shows" that the Ribbentrop – Molotow pact was a necessity, saving the USRR from Poland's aggression and helped regain indigenous Russian lands, which had been seized by Poland.
Poland's embassy in Moscow has said it will take necessary steps in response to the allegations.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poland protests `Russian falsification of history'
thenews.pl
23.06.2009
The Polish embassy in Moscow has strongly protested against a Russian TV report suggesting Poland collaborated with Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union during (should read "prior to" - Tom) WW II.
"The report is deceitful and unreliable. It is a striking example of the falsification of history," reads the official statement by the embassy. "It is sad that such a report was broadcast at prime time. Certainly, it will not improve the relationship between our two countries and will not lead to reconciliation between our nations," writes the embassy.
The report, broadcast by the main state-owned Rossija TV station , claimed that the government in Warsaw was in secret alliance with Nazi Germany and Japan in preparation to invade the Soviet Union. Hitler's portrait in the cabinet of Poland's pre-war Foreign Minister Jozef Beck proves the thesis, claims the TV journalists.
According to Gazeta Wyborcza, the report is just a sample of what viewers can expect in the run up to the 70 year anniversary of the beginning of World War II and the signing of the infamous Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact, a non-aggression agreement between Germany and the Soviet Union which opened the way for the invasion of Poland from the west, and the east.
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paulo
Just born
Posts: 44
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Post by paulo on Jun 26, 2009 7:39:12 GMT 1
Bonobo,
This was truly a very important thread you started here. Who would have thought that, after the last such accusation which Russia apologized for, it would have started a new one in this accusation.
They must really be trying to pressure Poland.
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Post by valpomike on Jun 26, 2009 16:51:39 GMT 1
They like the Germans have a great hate for Poland, and I don't think this will ever go away. It goes way back and is still there, growing. They must be upset since, Poland is doing so good now.
Mike
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 26, 2009 21:59:01 GMT 1
An outing to a play: Diary of a Red Army Officer. It is about the communist totalitarian system which promoted human swine and oppressed decent people. The actor who played the officer is quite known in Poland, from soap operas, of course, hence queues for an autograph. The author is Sergiusz Piasecki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergiusz_Piasecki
Sergiusz Piasecki (1901–1964), was one of the most renowned Polish language writers of the 20th century. His most famous work, Kochanek Wielkiej Niedzwiedzicy (The lover of Ursa Major), published in 1937, was the third most popular book of the interbellum Poland. After World War II , Piasecki's books were banned by the communist government of Poland. In the first Kochanek Wielkiej Niedzwiedzicy was again one of the most sold book in the country, according to the Rzeczpospolita daily. Another Piasecki's book, anti-Soviet satire The memoirs of a Red Army officer (Zapiski oficera Armii Czerwonej), has been reprinted several times.World War Two
In the summer of 1939 Piasecki went to Wilno, and he stayed there during the war. In September 1939, he volunteered to the Border Defence Corps, to fight the Soviets. After capitulation, he was offered a chance to move to France, but refused and decided to stay in occupied Poland. Even though he had never been a member of the Home Army, he had cooperated with Polish resistance, becoming in 1943 an executioner, and carrying out capital punishment sentences handed down by underground Polish courts. His wartime noms de guerre were "Sucz", "Kira" and "Konrad". Later, he wrote two books about his war activities. These are Wieza Babel (The Toewr of Babel) and Adam i Ewa (Adam and Eve). Among those who he was ordered to execute, was Józef Mackiewicz, falsely accused of cooperating with the Germans. However, Piasecki refused to kill him, and later it was revealed that Mackiewicz's accusations had been made up by the Soviets.Living abroad, Piasecki did not stop writing. In late 1940s he came to the conclusion that humor is the best weapon to fight the Communists. So, he wrote a satire The memoirs of a Red Army officer, which presents a made-up diary of Mishka Zubov - an officer of the Red Army, who, together with his unit enters Poland on September 17, 1939. Zubov claims in his "diary" that his only purpose is to kill all the bourgeoisie who possess watches and bicycles.
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Post by tufta on Jun 27, 2009 13:13:00 GMT 1
They like the Germans have a great hate for Poland, and I don't think this will ever go away. It goes way back and is still there, growing. They must be upset since, Poland is doing so good now. Mike Mike, you are right - some are upset and some hate Poland. But some not all, for Heaven's sake. Most, especially the young just don't care, exactly as the young in Poland don't care. And even the most hardened and confirmed Poland haters do sometimes change  ;D |
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paulo
Just born
Posts: 44
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Post by paulo on Jun 28, 2009 5:04:41 GMT 1
Tufta,
I think your title, "Poles and Russians - Conflicted Brothers" is highly prophetic (true and accurate).
I am not a Biblical scholar, but when it comes to white people groups in particular, I think the Bible speaks of much of it as from Magog--which is often viewed as most of the late Soviet Union, and yes, Poland, and other areas around these parts of the world.
Now I am not a Biblical scholar, and certainly I could be wrong.
Also, part of my belief may be related to the fact that I, like so many others, tended to think of Western Europe as the home of most of the white people groups. It is only very recently that I have started to be aware of the greatness of the white ancestral homes that have largely been ignored by many in the West. But when you talk of the largest single ancestral home, Slavs may be the most numerous.
This would back the saying of the Poles and Russians actually being brothers.
Let me hasten to say, I am not speaking politically, but factually, or for sure I at least HOPE so. I am NOT saying, as one would Politically infer, that 'Therefore, Poland must acquiesce to Russian designs on them. After all, they are brothers.' Never in a million years! God set borders and nations many years ago. In fact, He broke up the Tower of Babel when all the nations strove (tried hard) to become one unit and settle in one place. This was in disobedience to God's command, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and Fill the earth." This is a wondrous mystery, but seems to be because of people being more dependent on Him when they are in smaller, Autonomous, groups. His wondrous works will only begin to be more fully appreciated when this age ends.
The Bible says that in the last days, "nations (people groups) will rise up against nations, and kingdoms against kingdoms." I think this means that, even with all the movements towards one government rule (EU, UN, and the prevailing push of international politics, especially in the democracies), it will fail in the short-term. Then when the fulness of time comes, the world will finally be ready for a one-world type of government. All who oppose this will oppose at their own peril, because the world will be so tired of wars by this time. There are many profound things to understand. Future leaders need to know such things so they can better serve their own people group, pointing them to the Prince of Peace, Who alone will usher in a time of true and permanent peace. These are not simple things, but I think you were very accurate when you stated that the Poles and Russians are quite like brothers. And yet, in this evil world, "brother rises up against brother." Very insightful, in my opinion, and oft misunderstood.
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paulo
Just born
Posts: 44
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Post by paulo on Jun 28, 2009 5:18:34 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo, I must thank you for your post about Piasecki. I just read it all, After writing my own lengthy post. I was very intrigued that Piasecki wrote a book entitled, "The Tower of Babel." This was something I talked about in my post BEFORE reading your post.
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Post by tufta on Jun 28, 2009 18:07:00 GMT 1
Tufta, I think your title, "Poles and Russians - Conflicted Brothers" is highly prophetic (true and accurate). Paul, I agree, the title is great, gets right on the core of the relation. We are brothers. And we are conflicted. But it was not I who is was the author of this title, just look at the first message in this thread  As to Bible and modern history. Of course your point is very interesting. And perhaps I am wrong - but I never apply biblical explanations to modern history. I would say even more - with Europe being so diversified, this is one of the common points: no biblical explanations for recent history. I guess many years of religious wars have teached as so. Thank you for your interesting posting, Paul. |
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paulo
Just born
Posts: 44
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Post by paulo on Jul 1, 2009 0:56:04 GMT 1
I am still in the process of learning many of these computer-related 'tricks'. On-the-job training.
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 1, 2009 19:05:51 GMT 1
These are not simple things, but I think you were very accurate when you stated that the Poles and Russians are quite like brothers. And yet, in this evil world, "brother rises up against brother." Very insightful, in my opinion, and oft misunderstood. Genetic pool of Russians and Poles is very similar, we share more than with Germans and West Europeans. In 1018, the Polish king, Boleslaw Braveheart, summoned by the ruler of Rus who has just lost his power, organizes a military campaign in the East and goes as far as Kiev. For today`s Russians the city was the place where Russian nation came into being. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Expedition_%281018%29[/b] [/quote] So, that`s how it started. I am going to develop the thread into more detailed description of the Polish Russian conflict, but first a summary of events. In the Middle Ages and later on countries used to arise and grow by means of expansion which took place at the cost of neighbours, by diplomatic, merchant or military means. It is natural that Poles behaved like that too. Their expansion was directed eastwards and Poland, together with Lithuanian Empire, gained a lot of territories in the East with Rus population, today called Ukraine and Belarus. Later on the Moscow Principality grew stronger and started fighting back to regain the lands where Rus majority of Orthodox religion lived. Initially Poles and Lithuanians led a successful defence for many years, they even managed to occupy Moscow for a year, but every century Moscow expanded westwards, reconquering the Eastern lands. This struggle for domination in the East lasted for about 400 years. At the end of 18th century Poles were so weak and helpless (what a folly) they weren`t able to stop Russians and others from partitioning their country. Guys, let us always remember, the fight was fair. Both Poles and Russians tried to gain new territories at the expense of the other and the expense of Rus population which later on turned into Ukrainians and Belarussians. Eventually it was Russians who proved more persistent, determined and expansionistic, which tipped the balance in their favour and contributed to their final success. Therefore, stirring nationalistic hatred of Russians on the grounds of historical facts doesn`t make any sense today. Russians did what Poles did too, only the latter acted more decisively. See the map of Poland`s expansion and its fall: gdn.republika.pl/polska/index.html11 century  16 cent.  18 cent.  polandsite.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=polishhistory&action=display&thread=602 |
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Post by tufta on Jul 2, 2009 21:05:52 GMT 1
Funny. At the very moment I started to read this thread I am listening to a Polish Radio Trojka broadcast on the role of 'barbaric' invasions in forming what is now Europe. The broacast is in the 'Klub Trojki' cyclic programme. Excellent series btw. The guests of the host , are two historians today. According to what they say neither Russia nor Urkraine may claim origins in Kyevyan Rus. Or - another way, they may do it in the degree distantly similar to France's and Germany's origins in the country of Franks. Additionally - Urkraine is of course quite new country which was formed just 'a while ago' - in 20 century. They also reminded that Russia was formed through completetly different process - she was formed by the Germanic tribes coming from Scandinavia. They were called Varegs, and the name Rus is of Germanic origin. Genetic pool of Russians and Poles is very similar, we share more than with Germans and West Europeans. Quite possible, although we would have to know more what haplogroups are shared. What period are you talking about? |
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 2, 2009 22:25:54 GMT 1
The guests of the host , are two historians today. According to what they say neither Russia nor Urkraine may claim origins in Kyevyan Rus. It is funny how Polish historians try to make more commotion than they should. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I can understand that Poles can teach Russians the Polish perspective on facts from the history of Poland and its relations with Russia. But Polish historians trying to teach Russians how their country originated?? ;D ;D ;D ;D Don`t you think it`s pathetic?? ;D ;D ;D ;D The historians must be from IPN.... In the same way Russian historians may demand that Poland reborn in 1918 after 123 years of non-existence had no right to claim its origins in the Old Poland. ;D ;D ;D ;D That`s what Norman Davis said about Russian reconquest. It doesn`t matter when or how it was created. It matters who populated the area - mostly Rus people of Orthodox religion. But I hope you won`t claim that Russians or Ukrainians had less right to the land populated by the Rus than Poles did?? Exactly. Varegs started the Kievan Rus which is believed by Russians to be the origin of their country. Everything suits here nicely.
Kievan Rus and sometimes Kyivan Rus', was a medieval state which existed from approximately 880 to the middle of the 12th century. Founded by the Scandinavian traders (Varangians) called "Rus'" and centered in the city of Kiev (now the capital of Ukraine), Rus' polity is considered an early predecessor of three modern East Slavic nations: Belarusians, Russians, and Ukrainians
The balance between the countries. |
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 2, 2009 22:32:05 GMT 1
Genetic pool of Russians and Poles is very similar, we share more than with Germans and West Europeans. Quite possible, although we would have to know more what haplogroups are shared.
An analysis of the distribution of the control region haplotypes did not reveal any specific combinations of unique mtDNA haplotypes and their subclusters that clearly distinguish both Poles and Russians from the neighbouring European populations. The only exception is a novel subcluster U4a within subhaplogroup U4, defined by a diagnostic mutation at nucleotide position 310 in HVS II. This subcluster was found in common predominantly between Poles and Russians (at a frequency of 2.3% and 2.0%, respectively) and may therefore have a central-eastern European origin.
The R haplogroup is common throughout Europe and western Asia and the Indian sub-continent, and in those whose ancestry is from within these regions. It also occurs in North and Sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution is markedly different for the two major subclades R1a and R1b.
Haplogroup R1a is particularly common in central and western Asia, India, and in Slavic populations of Eastern Europe.
Haplogroup R1b predominates in Western Europe.The highest levels of R1a (>50%) are found across the Eurasian Steppe: West Bengal Brahmins (72%), and Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, (67%) , the Ishkashimi (68%), the Tajik population of Khojant (64%), Kyrgyz (63.5%), Sorbs (63.39%), Poles (56.4%), Ukrainians (50%) and Russians (50%)[11][4][12][8] and in the central India among the sahariai tribe of North india (72%).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)
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Post by tufta on Jul 3, 2009 4:05:27 GMT 1
Bonobo, if I read correctly the wiki citation says that little more than half of the Poles (56 percent) compared to exactly half of the Russians, half of teh Ukrainians, but also 72% of some tribe in India etc. etc. share R1a haplogroup. IMO it is not enough to say that "Genetic pool of Russians and Poles is very similar, we share more than with Germans and West Europeans." What about the 100 minus 56 = 44 percent of Poles which don't have this haplotype. What about almost half the Germans in the Easter Lands (46 percent if I remember correctly) which have this very same haplotype.
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Post by locopolaco on Jul 3, 2009 4:20:41 GMT 1
Bonobo, if I read correctly the wiki citation says that little more than half of the Poles (56 percent) compared to exactly half of the Russians, half of teh Ukrainians, but also 72% of some tribe in India etc. etc. share R1a haplogroup. IMO it is not enough to say that "Genetic pool of Russians and Poles is very similar, we share more than with Germans and West Europeans." What about the 100 minus 56 = 44 percent of Poles which don't have this haplotype. What about almost half the Germans in the Easter Lands (46 percent if I remember correctly) which have this very same haplotype. but what it definitely says is that we didn't get spoiled by either anglo-saxons nor the romans.. they just couldn't handle us barbarians.  |
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Post by tufta on Jul 3, 2009 4:23:13 GMT 1
I don't claim anything. I only posted some information about a broadcast I was listening to.
You may of course write the whole new history, but shouldn't you inform the readers first it is your history version? ;D ;D ;D ;D
The historians were just pair of young bright guys, freshly after their Ph.D.'s in history. And the host is Dariusz Bugajski. I like his balanced approach to reality very much.
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;D
