The Netherlands turns to the right

[pjotr]

I just came from the Christian-democratic party congress, the largest congress in its history, because this week the most rightwing government coalition in decades is (nearly) formed. A government with a rightwing populist anti-immigration standpoint. A government coalition who wants cutbacks on culture and the environment, which it calls to be "leftist hobbies" of "the leftwing church"(= left and centre-left parties, journalists and artists). The Islam and immigration is a deviding issue in the Dutch society. The PVV of Wilders is bussy with a crusade against Islam and so called Islamization in the Netherlands. He is supported by the VVD and the rightwing of the Christian-democratic party. But there is a fierce resistance from the leftwing of the Christian-democratic party, Christians in the party of the Social-christian wing (who are against excluding a group - Muslims- from the Dutch society, and against a thinking in "Them" and "We". The congress of the Christian-democrats is live on the Dutch TV all day. It is an extremely important day for the Diutch democracy. The CDA congress will vote "Pro" or "Contra" the new Rightwing government of VVD and CDA which is appeased ny the PVV. If this government will come to power it will have a consequence for the Netherlands, but also for Europe, because you will have a government who is focussed on Dutch issues, and who wants to limit the foreign agenda. Less 'Development aid', limitation of immigration, deislamization, and less aid to the poor, sick and vulnerable people in society. It will what we call a 'tough right', nearly UnDutch, conservative-liberal, "Nationalistic or Patriotic" government. Strange, because Patriotism and Nationalism or conservatism were never issues in the Netherlands. A non existing phenomenon, a rightwing national conservative movement or development came into existance in the last years after a lot of politcal turmoil, discord, polarisation and tension.

Pieter

Wilders in Berlin: Dutch Christian Democrats are listening in


Geert Wilders in Berlin

At last we know what the conservative VVD, the Christian Democrats (CDA) and the Freedom Party (PVV) are planning to achieve in the Netherlands. However, it is still not 100 percent sure that the intended right-wing cabinet will become a reality. At a party congress to be held in Arnhem on Saturday, CDA members will meet to pass judgment on the coalition agreement negotiated by their leader Maxime Verhagen. The words spoken by Freedom Party leader Geert Wilders in Berlin will echo around the congress hall.

As the CDA debates whether to agree with the coalition agreement, right-populist leader Geert Wilders will give a speech in Berlin on Islam and integration. He has been invited by former Berlin Christian Democratic Union member René Stadkewitz who is engaged in forming his own party, Die Freiheit (Freedom). Geert Wilders has been the main inspiration of the German project.

Berlin migrants


René Stadtkewitz of the party, Die Freiheit (Freedom)



Just like Wilders, René Stadtkewitz is convinced the main problem among migrants is Islam, which he believes is more than a religion. "It is also a political system, a system responsible for the creation of parallel societies in Berlin migrant districts. A system completely at odds with Western society."
Stadtkewitz supports a ban on headscarves, but is opposed to a ban on the Qur’an: "We need to build a society so strong that we won’t need such a ban.” Mr Stadkewitz wants to stand in the Berlin local elections which are scheduled to be held in 2011. He believes he will easily cross the five-percent electoral threshold and is elated to have Geert Wilders’ support. The first meetings between Wilders and Stadtkewitz took place this summer in The Hague.

"Geert Wilders has, and has received awards for this, the great talent of sparking and stirring up debate. He openly speaks of things others will not discuss. It sets him apart from the other politicians".
During the presentation of his plans for a German anti-Islam party, Mr Stadtkewitz said that Die Freiheit is not simply an appendix to the PVV. "There will be subjects we agree on, but there will also be moments at which we agree with others."

The Free West

There is not much known about what Wilders intends to say in Berlin. The PVV leader has only confirmed that he will speak. His speech may well focus on a project Wilders announced in summer. In an interview with the video service of the Dutch populist daily De Telegraaf (the largest Dutch newspaper by the way, comment Pieter), he said he was working on an ‘International Freedom Alliance’, a network of groups opposed to the ‘Islamisation’ of Europe.

"The march of Islam is not just a Dutch problem, it is a problem facing the entire Western world. However, there is no joining of forces, and if we could achieve that, it would be wonderful. So it is a new initiative and I expect a lot of it."

Wilders has mentioned five countries: Canada, the US, the United Kingdom, Germany and France. He wants to make contacts there for international agitation. ”I will speak in all five of these countries", he announced recently. "The march of Islam, the restrictions imposed on our freedom, these problems are not unique to the Netherlands, these are issues facing the entire free West".

Many people would beg to differ. German politicians in government and in parliament were extremely negative about the new Dutch minority cabinet. Even Chancellor Angela Merkel joined in, saying she regretted it had proved impossible to form a cabinet without the support of Geert Wilders.

Racist

Tomorrow, demonstrators in Berlin will try to make it impossible for Geert Wilders to speak. A broad alliance of political parties, unions and migrants' organisations intend to block the roads leading to the venue where Wilders is scheduled to speak. Spokesperson Dirk Stegemann says:
"I believe that Wilders is a racist. Try as he may to present his views as criticism of Islam, the fact of the matter is that he seeks to create an image of a homogenous Islam, attributing common traits to a diverse group of people. Here in Germany we call this cultural-religious racism."

CDA debate

And so on Saturday, while Wilders is speaking in Berlin, 600 kilometres to the west the CDA congress will be grappling with the coalition agreement. The real issue is not what is in the agreement, as CDA negotiator Verhagen has succeeded in safeguarding many Christian Democratic keynotes. However, a group of prominent CDA politicians refuse on principle to be dependent on the support of the likes of Geert Wilders. The more extreme Wilders' arguments get, the more powerful their arguments will resonate with the CDA rank-and-file. If Wilders keeps a low profile, CDA politicians supporting the coalition agreement will be in a position to argue that Wilders is not really as bad as he seems.

© Radio Netherlands Worldwide

[pjotr]

Crucial Christian Democrat congress in Arnhem

There were protests this morning outside the Christian Democrat (CDA) party congress in Arnhem. Several dozen activists dispayed banners with slogans like "Freedom Yes, Freedom Party No" and set up a large TV screen showing a loop of Geert Wilders speaking in 2009 when he claimed that CDA stands for "Christians Serve Allah" (Christenen Dienen Allah).

Around 4,500 party members are gathering to decide whether to accept the governing agreements drawn up by CDA leader Maxime Verhagen for a minority coalition with the conservative VVD supported in parliament by Geert Wilders' anti-Islam Freedom Party (PVV). Two agreements were negotiated. One is the coalition agreement between the VVD and the CDA and the other sets out the terms under which the PVV will support the coalition.

A number of prominent Christian Democrats have already argued against any form of cooperation with the Freedom Party. They include two former prime ministers and past and present cabinet ministers. Even if the party comes out in favour of the deal, any serious dissent within the CDA could threaten the stability of the new government which, even including the PVV, will have a majority of just one seat.

The voting is scheduled to take place at around 17:00 Dutch time.

© Radio Netherlands Worldwide

[pjotr]

[pjotr]

Christian Democrats hold key Dutch coalition vote

Reuters, 02/10 15:02 CET

By Greg Roumeliotis

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – Dutch Christian Democrat members met on Saturday to vote on a coalition pact with the Liberal party which would lead to a minority government backed by the anti-Islam Freedom Party.

Earlier this week the Liberals (VVD) and Freedom Party (PVV) approved the deal which makes concessions to PVV’s Koran-bashing populist leader Geert Wilders over banning the burqa and tightening immigration rules in the Netherlands.

But many prominent Christian Democrat (CDA) members object and the future of the Netherlands’ first post-war minority government hinges on the vote in the city of Arnhem by close to 5,000 CDA members. The vote is expected on Saturday afternoon. ("Comment Pieter; I am watching the congress live on the Dutch television. Was there whole morning and a large part of the afternoon. The result of the voting is very important. Will we have a new government?")

“I thought about throwing in the towel but I stayed because in the CDA we have a tradition of taking responsibility and because I was convinced that we would come to a satisfactory agreement,” CDA leader Maxime Verhagen told the conference.

“So I say yes, let’s do it. For the CDA and for everyone in the Netherlands.” Polls indicate a majority of CDA members want their party to agree the deal.

Under the proposal, the country would be able to bar entry to radical religious leaders. Convicted immigrants would be expelled more rapidly and immigrants would lose their temporary residence permit if they failed an integration exam.

“The PVV has driven a wedge in society … by scapegoating 1 million of our fellow citizens and wanting to make second-class citizens of them,” CDA politician and Justice Minister Hirsch Ballin wrote in a newspaper column on Saturday.

“The endorsement of Wilders as a political partner must be stopped, better late than never, before any more division in our country brings more exclusion and distress.”

Despite public hostility to immigration in several European countries, mainstream political parties have a taboo against forming coalitions that include far-right groups.

Financial markets are watching the congress closely because of concerns that scuppering the agreement would prolong efforts over the past four months to form a government and add to uncertainty when the Dutch face tough spending decisions.

Emotions ran high inside and outside the congress. Several speakers spoke strongly against Wilders, one calling him Judas while a protest was held earlier in Arnhem with demonstrators carrying banners such as “Yes to freedom, No to the PVV.”

“I am 20 years old, from Rotterdam, a Muslim and a Dutchman, a proud Dutchman. How can I convince my friends to vote for the CDA?” a party member asked the conference.

Prosecutors have opened a case against Wilders on charges of inciting hatred and discrimination against Muslims. He goes on trial on Monday.

Wilders’s rise to power has raised concerns about the image of the Netherlands abroad. He has called Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan “a total freak” and said he would advocate that the Netherlands leave the European Union were Turkey to join.

Asked at a VVD party meeting on Saturday about the risks of charting foreign policy with PVV support, VVD leader Mark Rutte, who is poised to become the next prime minister, said it would require dexterity but stressed the PVV would not be represented in the cabinet.

Weelders’s Freedom Party was placed third in the June election behind the Liberals and Social Democrats. The Christian Democrats placed fourth.

(Editing by Robert Woodward)

[pjotr]

Democracy has spoken and the majority of the Christian democrats have voted Pro a CDA-VVD government which is codesigned and tolerated by Geert Wilders. Wilders PVV party is not part of the government. We have a rightwing, conservative government now!

[tufta]

Oct 2, 2010 14:14:32 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I just came from the Christian-democratic party congress,

Pieter, so we have the first hand news! Thank you.

As usual you have tried to maintain the neutral observers stance, but am I right I have sensed the dual feelings in you? Or is it just me I feel dual about the matter. A professional would call it ambitendency. I can see the points in which the right is right, yet I see so many points in which they are simply dangerous. Several years past with Haider in Austria, it seemed so out of time. All Europe was mad at Austria and treated Austria's democratic choices very undemocratically. Today the Netherlands is nothing special and joins the long row of right wing hardcore governements in Europe.. Who is next? Sweden with Jimmie Akesson's party alredy in parliament? Germany with their neo-nazi or just nazi active in local parliaments and in society? Where do we stop? And is there another way to stop de-Europeanisation than right-wing answer?

[tufta]

Pieter, my sincere congratulations, as it is my deep belief that most of all for the Netherlands , and even for us, Poles, the new Dutch government is better than...




no government ;D ;D


Also I thought you might like to take a look here

www.economist.com/economist-asks/should_new_dutch_government_have_sought_support_far_right

[pjotr]

Oct 2, 2010 19:27:34 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 2, 2010 14:14:32 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I just came from the Christian-democratic party congress,

As usual you have tried to maintain the neutral observers stance, but am I right I have sensed the dual feelings in you? Or is it just me I feel dual about the matter.

Tufta,

Yes, I have dual feelings, you sensed it right. In Arnhem and the Netherlands I have to have a 'official neutral stance', or 'objective' position as far as that is possible. But today I had great sympathy and admiration for the Christian-democrats of the Leftwing branch of the Dutch christian democracy at the CDA congress in Arnhem. First of all there was the pressure of the three quarter of the party, which supported the rightwing party leader Maxime Verhagen. The atmosphere in the crowded hall was tense, emotional and very ideological. The party family CDA. I witnessed a gap between the older and the younger generations, a gap between the right and leftwings of the party, between Catholic and Protestant Christian democrats, between the Christian majority and the Muslim minority (yes, there are Muslim -Turkish- Christian democrats in the Netherlands).
The dissidents were in the cave of the Lion and sometimes booed when they were given speechtime. Their legitemate resistance came from their deep Christian democratic social foundations, being raised in the Christian democratic ideology of Solidarity with minority groups and christian charity. Some were motivated by Christian evangelical motivations, others by secular progressive motivations, like being part of a Union, youth group, association or cultural foundation.

The danger of the new 'tough right', 'xenophobic', 'discriminatory', 'isolationalist', selfcentred and Populist right is that it breeds on primitive human instincts, appeals to lower motivations like selfishness, ethnocentrism, 'naming and blaming', the desire in some people for discord and to expel undesirable people. This uncivilized, simplistic, and hefty kind of New Right is thrightening, damaging and bad for the Dutch national interests in Europe and the world. That is my opinion, the opinion of my parents (who are somewhere in the centre-right traditionally), and many progressive, liberal, conservative and other Dutch people. We don't know how to handle this new phenomenon and the rage behind it (the 1,6 million people who voted for Wilders and gave his PVV 24 seats in the Dutch parlaiment) of the Dutch masses (the working class, the frustrated unemployed, the nouveau riche middle class. The ancien riche middle class traditionally votes christian democratic -CDA-, conservative liberal -VVD, the Dutch Platforma Obytawelska- or the moderate liberal D66 or even Labour.) The problem with the PVV is that from one point of view it has reasonable objections towards the lack of integration, assimilation of immigrants of the old (centre-) left and (centre-) right governments and democratic political parties. Mind you that the PVV of Geert Wilders did not only attacked the left (centre-left and [far] left) but all the democratic parties (including the rightwing parties). The Danger of the PVV is that it merges Rightwing Populism with leftwing populism, and a camouflaged form of the old marginal far right European racist, xenophobe and Nationalist movements. Wilders is an exellent Master of Disguise, Machiavellist politician, strategic and tactical player in the sense of political organisation, agitation, political oneliners, propaganda, catching the media attention (of national and international media) and in building an international alliance of his Dutch movement with American, Israeli, German, Danish and British supporters. His ideology and movement is a typical North-West European phenomenon. In Polish perspective you could label his movement and ideology as a secular form or merger of the Polish Ruch Katolicko-Narodowy & Porozumienie Polskie (Polish Agreement) (both linked to Liga Polskich Rodzin), Polska Partia Narodowa, Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski, the conservative and eurosceptic Ruch Odbudowy Polski, Samoobrona Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej (SRP [the leftwing Populist elements of the far right rightwing populist PVV) point of view. His ideas are comparable to the early 'social darwinist' Roman Dmowski, but instaid of Dmowski's anti-semitism you could place in Wilders case Islamophobia. And in my point of view Islamophobia is the new anti-semitism of Europe. You have just criticizm on the Muslim immigrants in Europe and Islam as a religion in Europe, like we could criticize our own Roman-Catholic or Protestant christianity as christians or anti-clerical secular catholics. But today in some countries of Europe (like the Netherlands), on a day to day basis the verbal attacks on Muslims in Europe and Islam in general starts to be a worrysome phenomenon. Tufta and Bonobo, in my country you have exellent and peaceful Muslims of Turkish and Maroccan descent and other Muslims of other Muslim countries like Iran, Irak, Bosnia, Indonesia and other places. You have Muslim parlaimentarians from all democratic parties, except Geert Wilders PVV and the Fundamentalist Protestant SGP (who supports the new Rightwing government and is a critical ally of Wilders PVV. Both PVV and SGP are Pro-Israel). I have written about this subject before on the other forum. Today we have second and third generation immigrants who start to be Dutch, Dutch speaking Muslims, secular Muslims and moderate conservative, liberal and progressive Muslims. They are getting tired, sad, opset about the constant verbal agression of Wilders and other European politicians about Islam, Muslims and immigrants in Europe. A lot of these Muslim migrants themselves are critical towards the old to soft immigration policies and affirmative action programs. Now they feel pressured and set aside in spite of the fact that they integrated succesfully and are part of the Dutch society as working, tax paying people with kidd who go to Dutch schools and universities.

Pieter

[pjotr]

Oct 2, 2010 19:33:56 GMT 1 tufta said:

Pieter, my sincere congratulations, as it is my deep belief that most of all for the Netherlands , and even for us, Poles, the new Dutch government is better than...



no government ;D ;D

Also I thought you might like to take a look here

www.economist.com/economist-asks/should_new_dutch_government_have_sought_support_far_right

Tufta, the cartoon you showed here is of the exellent Dutch cartoonist Joep Bertrams. I have spoken him on a Cartoon competition of the best Dutch political cartoonists in Arnhem. He also made short political cartoon movies for the Dutch news program Nova, which stopped recently.



The Dutch public media are being transformed, because the opinion was that it was to leftwing. Good critical objective journalists like Clairy Polak were put aside for new, more popular journalists. I think some quality is lost here, but ofcourse I am just a guy of the ancien regime, a journalist of the 'leftwing church', who has 'leftwing hobbies' like culture, art and public television and radio. ;D


Clairy Polak

[pjotr]

Roman Stanisław Dmowski



Throughout his life, Dmowski deeply disliked Piłsudski and everything he stood for. Dmowski came from an impoverished urban background and had little fondness for Poland's traditional social structure. Instead, Dmowski favored a modernizing program and felt Poles should stop looking back nostalgically at the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which Dmowski held in deep contempt and should instead embrace the "modern world". In particular, Dmowski despised the old Commonwealth for its multi-national structure and religious tolerance. He was especially critical of its failure to create a common identity for various ethnic groups, such as Ukrainians and Belarusians.

Dmowski was a scientist and preferred logic and reason over emotion and passion. He once told Ignacy Jan Paderewski that music was "mere noise". Dmowski felt very strongly that Poles should abandon what he considered to be foolish romantic nationalism and useless gestures of defiance and should instead work hard at becoming businessmen and scientists. Dmowski was very much influenced by Social Darwinist theories, then popular in the Western world, and saw life as a merciless struggle between "strong" nations who dominated and "weak" nations who were dominated. In his view nations could be classified in four categories:

1. Nations on the lowest scale of being able or desiring to become independent and self-governing, for example in Dmowski's view the Belarusians.
2. Nations capable of self-governing themselves with awakened nationalistic aspirations, for example Ukrainians.
3. Nations wishing to regain independence with centuries-old cultures and statehoods past (e.g. Poles).
4. Nations on the highest ladder of social development and tradition, possessing a country currently (e.g. Germans).

In his 1902 book Myśli nowoczesnego Polaka (Thoughts of a Modern Pole), Dmowski denounced all forms of Polish Romantic nationalism and traditional Polish values. He sharply criticized the idea of Poland as a spiritual concept and as a cultural idea. Instead Dmowski argued that Poland was merely a physical entity that needed to be brought into existence through pragmatic bargaining and negotiating, not via what Dmowski considered to be pointless revolts — doomed to failure before they even began — against the partitioning powers. For Dmowski, what the Poles needed was a "healthy national egoism" that would not be guided by what Dmowski regarded as the unrealistic political principles of Christianity. In the same book, Dmowski blamed the fall of the old Commonwealth due to its tradition of tolerance. While critical of Christianity, Dmowski viewed some sub-groups of Christianity (other than Catholicism) as beneficial to certain nations. This was particularly true of Anglicanism and German Protestantism. Later in 1927 he revised this earlier view and renounced his criticism of Catholicism, seeing it as an essential part of the Polish identity. Dmowski saw all minorities as weakening agents within the nation that needed to be purged. In regard to the Jewish minority, in Myśli nowoczesnego Polaka, Dmowski wrote:

"...in the character of this race [the Jews], so many different values strange to our moral constitution and harmful to our life have accumulated that assimilation with a larger number of Jews would destroy us, replacing us with decadent elements, rather than with those young creative foundations upon which we are building the future".

[pjotr]

If you replace Roman Dmowski with Geert Wilders you get this:

Geert Wilders



During his political life, Wilders deeply disliked and dislikes the Dutch left and the political elite in general for everything it stands for. Especially the Dutch Labour party. Wilders came from a Southern-Dutch, Limburgian, Roman Catholic family and had little fondness for Netherlands traditional social structure. Instead, Wilders favored a modernizing program and felt that the Dutch should stop looking back nostalgically at the old Dutch multi-cultural society, which Wilders held(s) in deep contempt and should instead embrace the "modern world". In particular, Wilders despises the old Dutch political society for its multi-national structure and ethnic and religious tolerance. He was especially critical of its failure to create a common identity for various ethnic groups, such as Turks and Maroccans.

Wilders was a Dutch social insurance agent and worked as a speechwriter for the conservative-liberal People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD). He preferres logic and reason over emotion and passion. Wilders is very much influenced by Social Darwinist theories, popular in the Western world in the early 20th century, and sees his life as a merciless struggle between "strong" Western nations with a Judeo-Christian culture and heritage and "weak" nations who are dominated by Islam. In his view nations could be classified in four categories:

1. Nations on the lowest scale of being able or desiring to become independent and self-governing, for example in Wilders's view the Muslim nations.
2. Nations capable of self-governing themselves with awakened nationalistic aspirations, for example Hungary or the Nations of former Yugoslavia. (Wilders has or had a Hungarian wife and had Great Hungarian ideas, like uniting the Hungarian territories again.)
3. Nations wishing to regain independence with centuries-old cultures and statehoods past (e.g. Poland).
4. Nations on the highest ladder of social development and tradition, possessing a country currently (e.g. Israel, America and Denmark).

Wilders sharply criticizes the idea of The Netherlands as a spiritual concept and as a cultural idea. He dislikes the funding of art and culture, because he does not want to spend money on it. For Wilders, what the Dutch need is a "healthy national egoism" that would not be guided by what Wilders regards as the unrealistic political principles of Christianity and the secular left. While critical of Christianity, Wilders viewes Christianity as part of the European heritage and culture of nations and people. This was particularly true in the Netherlands of Calvinism and Roman Catholicism. He sees the Jewish and Christian roots of the Netherlands as an essential part of the Dutch identity. In the same time he considers Islam to be an alien ideology and culture, which is strange to the Dutch identity and culture. Wilders sees all minorities as weakening agents within the nation that needed to be purged. In regard to the Muslim minority, Wilders thinks:

"...in the character of this group of people [the Muslims], so many different values strange to our moral constitution and harmful to our life have accumulated that assimilation with a larger number of Muslims would destroy us, replacing us with radical elements, rather than with those young creative foundations upon which we are building the future".

[pjotr]

I also dislike Geert Wilders stance against Central- and Eastern Europeans. Which is a contradictio in terminis with his earlier stance on Hungary. The fact is that there are not so many Hungarians here, but there are Poles, Czechs, Bulgarians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians and Rumanians who work in construction, agriculture and the transport sector. These people are part of the European Union so they are no illegal aliens/strangers. But Wilders and cohorts treat them as such. These people work very hard in my country and other European countries, and therefor have a positive imput. Often these people do work other Western-Europeans do not want to do or do less well.

Ofcourse you have criminal elements under these people, especially under the Rumanians. But you have to let the police and justice department do it's job and not 'name and blame' all Central- and Eastern Europeans for a small group. It's the same old story of xenophobia, discrimination and labeling. In the past (sixtees) you had the Portugese and Spanish guestworkers. People complained about them and were hostile. After them came the Turks and Maroccans. They were seen as backward and primitive. There were jokes about them. Today the new target is Central and Eastern Europeans, because due to very strict anti-immigration laws there are less and less non-European immigrants. We are a multi-ethnic society with 160 nationalities. But the Dutch are stil the vast majority. I think it is not a pleasure to be a foreigner in the Netherlands or Denmark today. But I can't judge, because I am not foreign.

Tufta, it is a difficult thing to find the right ballance between humanity (all people are equal) and keeping your own identity and values. Our society has changed, but the dominant Dutch and Western-European culture maintains.

Pieter

[tufta]

Interesting, Pieter! But at the same time risky comparisons. I have to close now, but I will answer more broadly in the week.
Take care and thanks for excellent coverage of things Dutch!

[pjotr]

Tufta,

I am curious for your reaction.

Here a video in Dutch, I want to show you the emotion at the Christian democratic proces. The woman is a christian-democratic dissident, who is against cooperation with Wilders PVV. She talks about the foundations of the party, the principles of Christian democracy and against excluding Islam from society. She pleads for freedom of religion. The CDA is a centrist party in her view, who reaches out to differant groups in society, who unites people instaid of deviding people. I was there in that heated warm hall, and haver never seen such emotional and tense congress of any party. I am not a Christian democrat, but I was moved by the dedication and the dedication of all those christian democrats who came to Arnhem from all corners of the Netherlands.

nos.nl/video/188738-kathleen-ferrier-vertelt-waarom-ze-tegen-is.html

And now you see a supporter of party leader Maxime Verhagen, Camiel Eurlings, a Limburgian like Verhagen (both of Southern-Catholics), who fanatically supports the leader and the new government. Again you see the emotionality of the congress, which is unusual in the Netherlands.

nos.nl/video/188724-camiel-eurlings-steunt-maxime-verhagen.html

He says:

Dear, party friends, our party exeriances a very difficult time. Yet, in the same time we have the largest congress in the history of the Dutch party politics (democracy).
I am a christian democrat, and will never be a member of Geert Wilders PVV party. We had difficult times before. We should support this new government and our leader Maxime Verhagen.

Last week Thursday Rutte, the future new prime minister, presents the new coalition agreement, and the coalition of VVD and CDA with the support of PVV.

nos.nl/video/188264-presentatie-regeer-en-gedoogakkoord-mark-rutte.html

In the same day Geert Wilders was in Berlin to support a new German party against Islamization of Germany, the German PVV. Die Freiheid is a party with a Wilders ideology.

nos.nl/video/188774-geert-wilders-spreekt-in-berlijn.html

Outside there was a small demonstration against Wilders, by anti-fascists and inside were the German supporters of Wilders.

Wilders: "We are not like Angela Merkel, we don't accept the Islamization"
After his appearance at the meeting of his German comrades he went to a private place in Berlin to follow the live report of the Christian democratic congress in Arnhem.

Pieter

[pjotr]

Dutch coalition embraces Wilders

Ruling Christian Democrats in the Netherlands vote in favour of forming government with backing of anti-Islam party.

Last Modified: 02 Oct 2010 21:09 GMT


CDA leader Maxime Verhagen is likely to keep his job as cabinet minister after his party said 'yes' to the PVV [AFP]

The Christian Democrat (CDA) party in the Netherlands has voted to co-operate with an anti-Islam party, removing another hurdle to forming a conservative Dutch government.

At a convention in the city of Arnhem on Saturday, a 68 per cent majority of the 5,000 CDA-members cast ballots in favour of working with the Freedom Party, although there was significant opposition.

The Christian Democrats plan to join a minority cabinet led by the pro-business VVD party, with tacit support from Geert Wilders' anti-Islam Freedom party. The trio have announced a blueprint to curtail immigration and make major spending cuts.

CDA members of parliament will make a final decision next week, with two party dissidents possibly still opposed.

Maxime Verhagen, the CDA leader, said he was delighted by the result of the poll. "The convention showed clear support for the agreement with the VVD," he said.

'National egoism'

However, a number of prominent Christian Democrats have argued against co-operation with the Freedom Party.

"It would be bad for the party and bad for the country," Kathleen Ferrier, a member of the Dutch parliament, said at the congress in Arnhem.

Former Dutch prime minister Dries van Agt said the co-operation with Geert Wilders will "maim" the Christian Democrats. He also called Geert Wilders an "advocate of national egoism".

Piet de Jong, another former prime minister, said he was surprised that his fellow Christian Democrats were "willing to compromise the freedom of religion".

John Tyler, political editor of Radio Netherlands Worldwide, said emotions at the convention in Arnhem were running high.

"There are really impassioned feelings among the Christian Democrats about the issue of co-operating with Wilders, but the vote in the end was not very close," Tyler told Al Jazeera.

"Wilders will be supporting the new government from his seat in parliament."

During the vote, protests were held outside the convention venue in Arnhem. TV screens were set up showing footage of Geert Wilders speaking in 2009, when he claimed that CDA stands for "Christians Serve Allah".

Several dozen activists displayed banners with slogans saying "Freedom Yes, Freedom Party No".



Political analysts in the Netherlands have expressed concerns over the stability of the CDA-VVD coalition. Any dissent within the CDA could threaten the new government which, led by the PVV, will have a majority of just one seat in parliament.

German PPV

Meanwhile, Geert Wilders was in Berlin, the German capital, on Saturday to announce plans for a future German branch of his Freedom Party.

"Islam is not a religion," Wilders said in his speech before some 450 supporters. "It is above all a dangerous political ideology."

Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee reports on Wilders' call for a German Freedom Party branch

One Wilders supporter, an American woman living in Munich since 1972, said the burqa did not belong in Europe.

"I'm offended when I see these women with these black things all over themselves. They look like aliens, they don't look like they belong on this planet. What are they doing in Europe?" Caroline Rausch said.

"They can wear those clothes and chop off hands and beat their wives and kill their daughters and do whatever they want in their countries and not in my country and not in Europe," she said.

"I just feel that Islam is evil."

The Berlin event was organised by René Stadtkewitz, who until recently was a member of the CDU in the city's parliament, but he was ousted by his party for inviting Wilders to the German capital.

Stadtkewitz hopes to found the German branch of the Freedom Party, called Die Freiheit (freedom).

Outside Wilders' hotel in Berlin, people held banners and waved flags, one with pictures depicting Wilders with an Adolf Hitler-like moustache.

Wilders on trial

Wilders, who goes on trial in the Netherlands on October 4 for inciting hatred towards Muslims, has attracted a big following by denouncing leniency towards Muslim immigration and calling for bans on the Quran and the burqa.

Nicknamed "Mozart" for his platinum-dyed mop of hair, Wilders describes his far-right label as "nonsense", but has no hesitation branding the Quran a "fascist" book, and likening it to Hitler's Mein Kampf.

According to prosecutors, he risks up to a year in jail or a 7,600-euro ($10,471) fine for his comments. The court will hear evidence next week, followed by the prosecution's penalty request the following week.

Wilders will plead on October 19, and judgment is expected on November 4, according to a programme provided by the court.

[tufta]

Pieter, thanks to your presentations I much better understand the 'Wilders' phenomenon. Also your comparisons to Polish political life, present and past greatly facilitated the understanding.
At present there is a situation in some of the Western European countries, which causes much alarm in the circles you have with great sense of humour called 'ancient regime' of liberal centre or liberal left. Being myself mentally, at least partly, one of the elements of this merciles dictatorship of liberal attitutude to life, I do feel kind of anxiety when faced with un-liberal elements of human mind which seem to surface and take part in public life stronger then we got used to. However my task to intellectually come to terms with the problem is much easier than for most of my colleuges from the West, including you Pieter. Why? Beacause I am used to it. In Poland, through many years since regained independance in 1989, the right wing, or conservative-national elements were in this or other form present in public life, including political life. What was looked at in Poland as right wing, in Western Europe was called extreme right wing and looked upon with indagnation. The same indagnation was also expressed by this layer of Polish public life which I would call the real (no humour here) 'dictatorship' of liberal left. For many years the millieu which formed itself around Gazeta Wyborcza and Adam Michnik taught millions of Poles a lesson of hypocrisy – it is good to be liberal minded, tolerant towards other views and ways of life, except to those views and ways of life which disagree with us. As we have agreed in the past this same scheme of (non)rationale exsits in the West (in fact the Polish one is a direct copy of the Western left). Through all those years I have lost suspicion towards Polish right wingers, as I have learned they do not wish to cross the lines of basic respect to any human being. I am not sure if that will be the case with right wingers in the West, which already has a very bad record regarding that issue. The other big question mark I have is what will the hard core rightwingers, especially populist ones become after they become a legal part of the parliamentary system. In Poland, the populist mixture of left and right, Andrzej Lepper, lost all his agresiveness after he became part of establishment. But the other way is also possible - to become even more ambitious in the fight for power and will to change the system. Yes, the system, that is the question about. We are all anxious beacause we see the system comes to an end: the forced islamizations of Europe will probably soon need non-democratic, police ways of dealing with – it is against the ideals which present Europe is built upon. The sooner the rightwingers form a truly rightwing government in one of the important European countries (Austria is not enough) the sooner we may expect a really nasty havoc with the worst hit the innocent integrated Muslim citizens of EU. But once the rules are broken, they are broken for good. After the Muslim part the time may come for Easterners who 'take away the jobs'. The Easterners will react with retaliations involving some kind of re-nationalisation of foreign own means of production. This all sounds crazy today, but these are probable, real ways of escalation. Romania would react that way even today were the citizens kicked our of France ethnic Romanians not Roma. So what to do? The problem of Europe loosing her identity must be solved, if the still prevailing liberal-democratic model will not fix it, the hardcore rightwingers will gain power in Western Euope sooner or later, that is for sure. Byt how to fix the problem in a democratic, liberal way if already large group of legal citizens simply don't wish to assimilate? The worst spectres of the German past come to mind. What will happen if those masses in Western Europe, angry anbout the Muslims, about the foreigners presence will find their great leader with great charisma? Brrrr.

Interestingly, Poland goes against the current, and Poles seem to turn more to the left after many years of neglect caused by the post-communist aversion syndrome. You must have heard about Janusz Palikot new politcal movement for instance.
Pieter, comparing Wilders and Dmowski was a great move as it caused a mental ferment, allowing me to rethink the matter again. It doesn't matter the comparison is not preciese. I have initially wanted to point out the discrepancies, but changed my mind. They doesn't matter. Or maybe just one matters – Dmowski, did a great job for Poland independance and evolvement of a strong positivistically thinking professional layer. His antisemtism evolved only later out of frustration that he lost competition for power in already free Poland, and this part of his mental presnce in political life was demonized ad absurdum by the Jewish lobbies in Poland and out of Poland. So the difference is that Wilders did not yet do anynything good for the Netherlands. As a concluding side note - Pieter, in the present day Poland it is Donald Tusk who represents Dmowski's perspective of viewing Polish neighbours, Polish role in Central Europe. While Jarosław Kaczyński represents the perspective of Józef Piłsudski. Astonished?

[pjotr]

Tufta,

I have read your reply with great interest and respect. It gave me an insight in the reality of Poland today and it's past, and the differances and simularities between our societies and countries. It is late and I came back from just another political debate I was involved with. I have to go to bed now to sleep, because tomorrow is another day. But your very accurate and daring reply needs and answer.

Cheers,
Pieter

P.S. - I know the differance between Wilders and Dmowski, but wanted to use an exaggeration or example which showed the extremism of Geert Wilders. The Western-European Populist right is differant than the Polish right, because it merges conservative-liberalism, far right ideas and socialism.

[tufta]

Oct 5, 2010 0:17:06 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I came back from just another political debate I was involved with.

Hot time in Netherlands' political life! ;D

[pjotr]

Oct 5, 2010 8:27:24 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 5, 2010 0:17:06 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I came back from just another political debate I was involved with.

Hot time in Netherlands' political life! ;D

It was just another local political debate in Arnhem. City politics as usual.
It was a lot of work for us because it was a political pub debate with live
television, radio, life-stream connection and Twitter following. That was new for me.


the Arnhem municipal executive of sports and real estate development
Gerry Elfrink at the debate of yesterday evening

[pjotr]

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Pieter, thanks to your presentations I much better understand the 'Wilders' phenomenon. Also your comparisons to Polish political life, present and past greatly facilitated the understanding.

Tufta,

I am glad that the comparison had some grounds, because sometimes the differances between the two countries and people can be very confusing. Let me explain. Even if you have seemingly simular people or phenomenon, the meaning can be totally differant in both countries. For instance a religious Polish Roman-Catholic is someone completely differant from a religious Dutch Roman Catholic.
(Because the Dutch Roman-Catholic -even if he or she did not have Protestant friends, colleages or family- is influenced by Dutch Calvinism, which is in the language, state system - a Protestant Dutch Reformed Royal family and head of state, Queen Beatrix, and for instance the Dutch Christian democracy in which Catholic political ideology -Catholic social teaching- and Calvinist ideology live side by side or are merged in one Christian-democratic ideology. Catholic and Calvinist politicians and ideologues became very close the last 30 years that the joined Christian democratic party exists. For a very long time Christian-democracy as a centrist movement was the largest and most influential political movement in the Netherlands with rightwing and leftwing centrist wings). Wilders is a secularist with a Southern (Limburg) Catholic background. Maxime Verhagen is a Southern (Limburg) Catholic.

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

At present there is a situation in some of the Western European countries, which causes much alarm in the circles you have with great sense of humour called 'ancient regime' of liberal centre or liberal left. Being myself mentally, at least partly, one of the elements of this merciles dictatorship of liberal attitutude to life, I do feel kind of anxiety when faced with un-liberal elements of human mind which seem to surface and take part in public life stronger then we got used to.

I feel empathy for your standpoint, because I am a centrist liberal myself, without a clear political party in the Dutch party landscape. As a journalist I have to be neutral and objective, and I am that in my job, fair and critical towards all parties. I treat the left the same as the right and the centre the same as the left and right flanks. My old art and culture background often creates almost libertarian or Anarchistic elements in me, because I am more cosmopolitan than my environment in the sense that I feel connected with Poland (Polish family), my siters (South-Africa), Berlin and Kassel (My art Mecca and Medina), Belgium (part of my life) and the USA (Polish-American family). In my street a quarter of the cars are Polish and I hear Polish all day through my front window, of the Polish workers who talk with eachother. And I am fine. Just around the corner in another street a few steps away a Polish flag hangs from a building where the workers work and live too. And it is fine with me! In front of my door stands a Ford Stationweagon with this written on the backwindow:

The Kruger Jazz Band, popular classical tunes in a jazzy performance. Number plate PL E2D 27 PP. Jazz musicians and workers?

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

However my task to intellectually come to terms with the problem is much easier than for most of my colleuges from the West, including you Pieter. Why? Because I am used to it. In Poland, through many years since regained independance in 1989, the right wing, or conservative-national elements were in this or other form present in public life, including political life. What was looked at in Poland as right wing, in Western Europe was called extreme right wing and looked upon with indagnation.

Yes, I remember that. I was one of these Western-Europeans, because when I was in Warsaw in august 2006 during the Lebanon war in a home of a civilized and sophisticated, but anti-zionist (Polish moderate anti-semitic), anti-German, anti-Russian lady (Ambassadors wife) who was a family friend of my mother in Warsaw in the fiftees and early sixtees (pre-war neighbours in Mokotow, and her parents were friends of my grandparents. She came from an Economical school of Warsaw environment.) She was a PiS supporter and in her appartment Radio Maryja ( www.radiomaryja.pl/ ) or TV-Trwam ( www.tv-trwam.pl/ ) was on whole day. I felt like I embodied the evils she saw in Western-Europe myself, while being camouflaged like a kind decent boy. Western-Europe for her was the evil of decadence and hedonism; Abortion, Euthenasia, Gay marriage, drugs, liberal secular values she despised and the gap with Poland, that was what she experianced or felt. She travelled a lot to a lot of countries, airports and capitals. Fluent in the diplomatic French language, English and ofcourse Polish. It was quite an experiance for me, because she was very hospitable, but in the same time I avoided tricky political, cultural or news subjects, due to to the contrast in our opinions. I was her guest, I was polite, and did not want political discussions with an old friend of my mother. I thought she is a typical representative of Roman Dmowski's Endecja party, while I myself feel more connected to the views of Pilsudski and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (with my Schlachtza roots ).
The lady wasn't a fan of Gazeta Wyborcza, she read Rzeczpospolita and was very pious. As a guest of her house I went with her to mass in the beautiful baroc church in the Krakowskie Przedmieście 3 in Warsaw. There was a differance by being inside in the appartment with the National-rightwing atmosphere and hospitality, because she held my family in high esteem and the Warsaw outside with it's contrasts. With SLD in Rozbat nearby, radical communist grafitti in the city centre, and the great Modern Warsaw I saw next to the Palace of culture, the Old city and the parks and castle's/Palaces and Museums of the city.

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

The same indagnation was also expressed by this layer of Polish public life which I would call the real (no humour here) 'dictatorship' of liberal left. For many years the millieu which formed itself around Gazeta Wyborcza and Adam Michnik taught millions of Poles a lesson of hypocrisy – it is good to be liberal minded, tolerant towards other views and ways of life, except to those views and ways of life which disagree with us. As we have agreed in the past this same scheme of (non)rationale exsits in the West (in fact the Polish one is a direct copy of the Western left).

We agree Tufta. But nowadays unfortunately you have a Rightwing Populist version of that. It is okay to be Conservative, tolerant towards other views and ways of life,
except to those views and ways of life wich disagree with us. And there are so much disagreements between them and me that they can't except my 'cosmopolitan views' and I dislike their simplistic, judging and taxating view. Like I did and do dislike the forced tolerance and affirmative action of the old and new left in the past. I like the Moderate centre-left liberals of the political centre.

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Through all those years I have lost suspicion towards Polish right wingers, as I have learned they do not wish to cross the lines of basic respect to any human being. I am not sure if that will be the case with right wingers in the West, which already has a very bad record regarding that issue. The other big question mark I have is what will the hard core rightwingers, especially populist ones become after they become a legal part of the parliamentary system.

Yes, there is a differance between the Polish right and the West-European right, the West-European right is more opportunistic, materialistic, chauvinistic and less idealistic than the Polish right. In the Polish right Polish patriotism is mixed with Polish Roman-Catholic ideology, conservatism, liberalism and Christian-democracy (and I think Christian-democracy is deeper rooted in the Polish right even though there are no parties which are called Christian-democratic, I mean the social-conservative, rightwing branch of the Christian-democracy). The social-darwinistic and xenophobe element of the Populist right in Europe is less evident in the Polish right.

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

In Poland, the populist mixture of left and right, Andrzej Lepper, lost all his agresiveness after he became part of establishment. But the other way is also possible - to become even more ambitious in the fight for power and will to change the system. Yes, the system, that is the question about. We are all anxious because we see the system comes to an end: the forced islamizations of Europe will probably soon need non-democratic, police ways of dealing with – it is against the ideals which present Europe is built upon.

I think that is taking place in the Netherlands rightnow with the new rightwing National-conservative government of rightwing liberals and conservative christian-democrats who are supported by Rightwing Populists in parlaiment. We had several police organisations with regional authonomy. The new government will form a national police force with thousands of new police officers. Foreigners will be encouraged to return to the country they came from. The new government wants to stop the import of families by migrants, or foreign brides. Non-European (Western) immigration wil be discouraged. The pressure on migrants to integrate and assimilate will be increased and there will be a climate of "No new mosques" and 'no new Islamic schools'.

jagahost.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=europeannews&action=display&thread=7733

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

The sooner the rightwingers form a truly rightwing government in one of the important European countries (Austria is not enough) the sooner we may expect a really nasty havoc with the worst hit the innocent integrated Muslim citizens of EU. But once the rules are broken, they are broken for good. After the Muslim part the time may come for Easterners who 'take away the jobs'. The Easterners will react with retaliations involving some kind of re-nationalisation of foreign own means of production. This all sounds crazy today, but these are probable, real ways of escalation.

This could be a scenario, yes!

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Romania would react that way even today were the citizens kicked our of France ethnic Romanians not Roma. So what to do? The problem of Europe loosing her identity must be solved, if the still prevailing liberal-democratic model will not fix it, the hardcore rightwingers will gain power in Western Euope sooner or later, that is for sure.

They already have in the Netherlands, Flanders (their influence), France, Denmark and Sweden.

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Byt how to fix the problem in a democratic, liberal way if already large group of legal citizens simply don't wish to assimilate? The worst spectres of the German past come to mind. What will happen if those masses in Western Europe, angry anbout the Muslims, about the foreigners presence will find their great leader with great charisma? Brrrr.

That time is maybe closer by than we think. Now there is stil not a charismatic national leader who will lead the rigthwing mob and the masses.

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Interestingly, Poland goes against the current, and Poles seem to turn more to the left after many years of neglect caused by the post-communist aversion syndrome. You must have heard about Janusz Palikot new politcal movement for instance.

Tufta, I haven't heard of mister Palikots new political movement. Could you explain that phenomenon to me please?

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Pieter, comparing Wilders and Dmowski was a great move as it caused a mental ferment, allowing me to rethink the matter again. It doesn't matter the comparison is not preciese. I have initially wanted to point out the discrepancies, but changed my mind. They doesn't matter. Or maybe just one matters – Dmowski, did a great job for Poland independance and evolvement of a strong positivistically thinking professional layer. His antisemtism evolved only later out of frustration that he lost competition for power in already free Poland, and this part of his mental presnce in political life was demonized ad absurdum by the Jewish lobbies in Poland and out of Poland. So the difference is that Wilders did not yet do anynything good for the Netherlands. As a concluding side note - Pieter, in the present day Poland it is Donald Tusk who represents Dmowski's perspective of viewing Polish neighbours, Polish role in Central Europe. While Jarosław Kaczyński represents the perspective of Józef Piłsudski. Astonished?

Tufta,

I don't know enough about Polish politics to less to be able to judge that. You are a Pole living in Poland, and therefor you will know if that's the truth!

[pjotr]

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Pieter, comparing Wilders and Dmowski was a great move as it caused a mental ferment, allowing me to rethink the matter again. It doesn't matter the comparison is not preciese. I have initially wanted to point out the discrepancies, but changed my mind. They doesn't matter. Or maybe just one matters – Dmowski, did a great job for Poland independance and evolvement of a strong positivistically thinking professional layer. His antisemtism evolved only later out of frustration that he lost competition for power in already free Poland, and this part of his mental presnce in political life was demonized ad absurdum by the Jewish lobbies in Poland and out of Poland. So the difference is that Wilders did not yet do anynything good for the Netherlands. As a concluding side note - Pieter, in the present day Poland it is Donald Tusk who represents Dmowski's perspective of viewing Polish neighbours, Polish role in Central Europe. While Jarosław Kaczyński represents the perspective of Józef Piłsudski. Astonished?

Tufta,

Interesting thesis. I am suprised because I thought it was the other way around. The Jarosław Kaczyński would represent the perspective of Dmowski and that Donald Tusk is just a modern liberal or maybe a Józef Piłsudski supporter. This shows how little I understands from Polish politics, because I don't have acces to the Polish language press and media (TV and Radio) due to the language gap. The bottle neck of don't speaking Polish and not understanding Polish. The level of political discussion, debate, articles and essays is out of my reach.
I am dependant on the Dutch, German and English media and written press.

But you and Bonobo are a great source, and a nice part of Poland to visit (this Forum and your contributions on Jaga's Forum).

Pieter

[pjotr]

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Interestingly, Poland goes against the current, and Poles seem to turn more to the left after many years of neglect caused by the post-communist aversion syndrome. You must have heard about Janusz Palikot new politcal movement for instance.

I have read wikipedia on Janusz Palikot, a funny provocateur and unorthodox politician I should say.

fakty.interia.pl/news/po-powinna-bronic-gejow-zydow-i-ludzi-z-sld,896113,
fakty.interia.pl/newsroom/news/palikot-z-silikonowym-penisem-w-rece,901145
www.wprost.pl/ar/160211/Palikot-Lech-Kaczynski-w-1979-r-byl-marksista/

[tufta]

Oct 7, 2010 8:40:24 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Pieter, comparing Wilders and Dmowski was a great move as it caused a mental ferment, allowing me to rethink the matter again. It doesn't matter the comparison is not preciese. I have initially wanted to point out the discrepancies, but changed my mind. They doesn't matter. Or maybe just one matters – Dmowski, did a great job for Poland independance and evolvement of a strong positivistically thinking professional layer. His antisemtism evolved only later out of frustration that he lost competition for power in already free Poland, and this part of his mental presnce in political life was demonized ad absurdum by the Jewish lobbies in Poland and out of Poland. So the difference is that Wilders did not yet do anynything good for the Netherlands. As a concluding side note - Pieter, in the present day Poland it is Donald Tusk who represents Dmowski's perspective of viewing Polish neighbours, Polish role in Central Europe. While Jarosław Kaczyński represents the perspective of Józef Piłsudski. Astonished?

Tufta,

Interesting thesis. I am suprised because I thought it was the other way around. The Jarosław Kaczyński would represent the perspective of Dmowski and that Donald Tusk is just a modern liberal or maybe a Józef Piłsudski supporter.

This is of course an approximation, Pjotr. But Kaczyński borthers always saw the countries which were once part of Rzeczpospolita in a special way. Unfortunately also in idealistic way, thus they have let the evolution of Polish - Ukrainian relation in a strange manner. Both Jushchenko and Tymoshenko (former president and PM) played with them like with little children - promised a lot, did little.

Closer to Piłsudski's ideas in foreign politics is Bronisław Komorowski. But he correctly sees how they are outdated in their original form.

[tufta]

Oct 7, 2010 8:49:46 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30 GMT 1 tufta said:

Interestingly, Poland goes against the current, and Poles seem to turn more to the left after many years of neglect caused by the post-communist aversion syndrome. You must have heard about Janusz Palikot new politcal movement for instance.

I have read wikipedia on Janusz Palikot, a funny provocateur and unorthodox politician I should say.

fakty.interia.pl/news/po-powinna-bronic-gejow-zydow-i-ludzi-z-sld,896113,
fakty.interia.pl/newsroom/news/palikot-z-silikonowym-penisem-w-rece,901145
www.wprost.pl/ar/160211/Palikot-Lech-Kaczynski-w-1979-r-byl-marksista/

This was this part of his public activity which was intended at getting known and popular. Now he is trying to break that image from a position he gained (he was alrready a leader of Civil Platform in the Wojewodztwo of Lublin. Later on he introduces quite serious ideas. But a lot of people still do not take him serioisly as in the past he was an editor-owner of a right wing magazine Ozon. I think there is a thread about his political programme started by Bo.

[tufta]

Oct 7, 2010 0:46:05 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I don't know enough about Polish politics to less to be able to judge that. You are a Pole living in Poland, and therefor you will know if that's the truth!

Thus my postings

Pjotr - Trwam and Radio Maryja certainly weren't a core of PiS party electorate, rather a far right margin (it now changes, since the chairman of the party has gone a little crazy ). And certainly they are even more radical in some notions than Roman Dmowski's visions from his later part of activity. Although yes I am sure Trwam and Radio Maryja would join the antisemitic crusade by Dmowski with delight. But again, comparisons to Dmowski are not good here. He was a man of state with great merits to Poland. (Which even his antisemitism cannot negate, although was nasty). Father Rydzyk did not do anything good for Poland, on the opposite he makes her weaker. And additionally he drives people away from the Church.

[pjotr]

Oct 7, 2010 9:29:45 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 7, 2010 0:46:05 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I don't know enough about Polish politics to less to be able to judge that. You are a Pole living in Poland, and therefor you will know if that's the truth!

Thus my postings

Yes, your postings.

[pjotr]

Oct 7, 2010 9:29:45 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 7, 2010 0:46:05 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I don't know enough about Polish politics to less to be able to judge that. You are a Pole living in Poland, and therefor you will know if that's the truth!

Thus my postings

Pjotr - Trwam and Radio Maryja certainly weren't a core of PiS party electorate, rather a far right margin (it now changes, since the chairman of the party has gone a little crazy ). And certainly they are even more radical in some notions than Roman Dmowski's visions from his later part of activity. Although yes I am sure Trwam and Radio Maryja would join the antisemitic crusade by Dmowski with delight. But again, comparisons to Dmowski are not good here. He was a man of state with great merits to Poland. (Which even his antisemitism cannot negate, although was nasty). Father Rydzyk did not do anything good for Poland, on the opposite he makes her weaker. And additionally he drives people away from the Church.

Tufta,

Then this diplomats wife I was staying with had a far right nature. Her very nice (married) daughter was more like a sort of PO supporter. The lady had a sort of Trinity (Trójca Święta) of Polish Nationalism. Holy and sacret to her were (1) the Nation, (2) the (Polish) people (in Unity) and (3) the Polish (Roman Catholic) church and the Polish Roman Catholic faith. And again there was also a trinity of rejection; Jews, Germans and Russians. She made me very clear that in her view these were Polands arch enemy. But especially the jews were a focus of her negative attention. Conspiracy theories, every moment trying to emphatise the 'evil' of jews, and that criticizm of jews was impossible, because jews controled the Polish press, economy and politics. Only the pure Polish rightwing forces, the National religious camp, true Patriotic Nationalistic Poles were good. She was a strange and interesting merger of diplomatic cosmopolitism (international diplomatic contacts with many countries, several friendships) and Polish isolationalism, Nationalistic conservatism, rejection of foreign influences from East and West, and ethnocentrism. She was friends with the Israeli embassadors wife of the country she and her ambassador husbant were stationed. Despite her fierce anti-semitism. The Lebanon war was on the television (Polish, French, CNN and etc) all the time. And she said then, looking angrily at the tv, "see how evil these jews are". There was an obsession with jews I did not understand, and a nearly poisonous disgust of jews as a people. This Polish kind of anti-semitism was new to me, and I thought it was her kind of anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Ofcourse there are a lot of sorts of anti-semitism in Poland and abroad. Communist anti-semitism, Endecja (LPR) anti-semitism, leftwing Populist anti-semitism, Catholic religious anti-semitism and new far right anti-semitism of Neo-Nazi's, Skinhead groups and Hooligan gangs. In the same time you have various sorts of philosemitism. Polish Judaism is growing slowly, because some Poles rediscovered their jewish past, which was hidden to them by Jewish parents, who lived like Polish Catholics, often Polish jewish women who converted to Catholicism and married a Polish Catholic man. But also jewish couples who abandoned their jewish fiath, culture and ethnic background to live as Poles with Polonized names. Like in other parts of the world Polish jews converted to Roman Catholicism and Protestant fiaths. They became christians and their offspring are Polish christians, not jews. I have to put things into perspective to not create the cliche image of the anti-semitic Pole, who sucks anti-semitism from his mothers chest. That was an old saying among jews, that Poles drink milk from anti-semitic mothers, and therefor are infected with anti-semitism from the mothers milk. That is a sort of anti-Polonism which looks like the anti-semitic stories like the jews used the blood of christian children for their Matzes bread. Trwam and Radio Maryja were boring stations to me! I was suprised how many chanals there were in Warsaw, public and commercial Polish tv stations, Russian, Ukrainian or Belarussian tv (I don'nt know which one because I can't see if the Cyrillic alphabet written and spoken languages were Russian, Belarus of Ukrainian. I knew they weren't Polish), Czech tv, the international chanals CNN, TV5 (French) and other chanals. I enjoyed the hospitality of the lady, her Polish kitchen (Pyrogy), her showing me around in Warsaw with her car, and her daughter who took me to lunch in a typical Polish restaurant near her work. I saw old and new Warsaw, the Museums, the parks, the neighbourhoods, the Palaces, the embassies neighbourhood (where I stayed in the appartment of the Polish ambassador). Strange enough the daughter of the lady was married to a German, who learned to speak Polish. That daughter is as puritinical Catholic as her mother, a very strict believer. I talked with her on the phone in Warsaw, while she was in her home abroad in another European country. It was an incredibly interesting and learnable week for me in Warsaw. I also visited the New Warsaw Uprising Museum, saw the Uprising monument in the centre, the Chopin Museum, saw the party headquarters of the SLD (Rozbat), the huge modern PiS, PSL and LPR billboards in the city and that there were a lot of differant kind of Poles in the city. Leftwing worker types, conservative and liberal business oriented people, very religious people, I saw a street filled with old and young people who were going on pilgrimage to Częstochowa to visit the famous Pauline monastery of Jasna Góra that is the home of the Black Madonna painting (Polish: Jasnogórski Cudowny obraz Najświętszej Maryi Panny Niepokalanie Poczętej), a shrine to the Virgin Mary. I saw exellent galeries and wonderful Museums with ancient, old European and Polish art and Modern art. I enjoyed the visit due to the roots journey objective behind it. This was the city of the childhood of my mother (1934 -1944), the family of my mother, and where my mother had her her professional life as a young woman (1955-1967). The New democratic and free Warsaw was completely differant from the Communist Peoples Republic Warsaw I remembered from my last visit in 1984. It was exiting to visit the Polish capital as a 14 year old kid, but it was even more exiting to visit the New Warsaw of 2006 as an 36 years old adult. From 1984 I remembered the Palace of Culture, the Palaces, the black and white movie in the Museum in the Old town, the bar Mleczny with it's cheescake and other products. I remember the large Communist (grey) neighbourhoods with tall flats (aparment 'building's in American English). For me as a teenager from the Netherlands it was an adventure to travel from Poznan to Warsaw by train seeing the Polish landscape, towns and villages between the two cities. Most of the time we went to Poland in the seventees and eightees was to Poznan, because my grandparents and Polish family lived there.
In Warsaw only a few Polish family members lived and friends. I liked the old town in 1984.



If you want to try them cooked, the good place to go are milky bars in Poland – they are going out of business one by one, but they were a good place to eat. The idea was to give working people something domestic and healthy to eat, while both man and woman were busy working for the industry. The milky bars were subsidized, that’s why they serve food so cheaply. They are also obliged to serve milk dishes.



I loved the delicious Cheesecake (Sernik) they served there.


Sernik domowy

Pieter

[tufta]

Oct 8, 2010 0:56:12 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Warsaw was completely differant from the Warsaw I remembered from my last visit in 1984.

Pieter

I think this is exactly the core of your experiences in Warsaw. You remembered a 'frozen' city where free life was hidden from the eyes of an onlooking 'stranger'. And then you suddenly saw a modern, flourishing city with multitude of people's lifestyles and lifeviews demonstrated freely

[pjotr]

Oct 8, 2010 7:33:16 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 8, 2010 0:56:12 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Warsaw was completely differant from the Warsaw I remembered from my last visit in 1984.

Pieter

I think this is exactly the core of your experiences in Warsaw. You remembered a 'frozen' city where free life was hidden from the eyes of an onlooking 'stranger'. And then you suddenly saw a modern, flourishing city with multitude of people's lifestyles and lifeviews demonstrated freely

Exactly!

[Bonobo]

Oct 8, 2010 7:33:16 GMT 1 tufta said:

I think this is exactly the core of your experiences in Warsaw. You remembered a 'frozen' city where free life was hidden from the eyes of an onlooking 'stranger'. And then you suddenly saw a modern, flourishing city with multitude of people's lifestyles and lifeviews demonstrated freely

I agree with flourishing.
However, demonstrating lifestyle freely is still backward. E..g, I haven`t see gay couples in streets, like in NYC.