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Post by pjotr on Oct 24, 2010 20:48:34 GMT 1
Pieter, you are of course right. But if I understand correctly you agree with those present trends in Western Europe which tend to see the Nazi Germany's role in this long chain of human injustice as just one link of it. I am of a slightly different opinion, perhaps a sign of growing up on the ashes, both metaphorically and literally. I still do see the deeds of Nazi Germany as something quite incomparable to anything else. Perhaps not as to the rule, to the idea of getting rid of the whole nations or ethicities, be it Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsy. The idea was not new nor was the action, a try. But the methods and paranoic meticulousness, massive support for that, were unique. In my opinion incomparable to anything mentioned. I hope that in the Future new lunatics won't use the Nazi practice as an example for new mass murders or the systematic and fanatical destruction of an ethnic or religious group. We have to be careful in Europe! |
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Post by tufta on Oct 24, 2010 21:22:26 GMT 1
It almost looks like if I am a Zionist. The only reason I am not a Zionist is because I am not a Jew. No it does not  But you haven't mentioned the secular Jews, who don't pray but still leave for Israel. Also, there are Jews in Israel getting Polish passports (as EU passports) 'just in case' if something goes wrong in the Middle East. Germany of today is still a good place to live for Jews. But these are marginalia. If you see the Nazi Germany's actions during WWII towards Jews, the Holocaust, as something unique- - why dilute it? I undestand your clear and fair intentions, but the 'relativisation party' is alread there - in Western Europe. They take different perspective in purely relativistic reasons. If we say never again and mean it, we should never dilute industrial murder. Creeping antisemitism in prewar or even todays Hungary is no match to it. |
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Post by pjotr on Oct 24, 2010 22:57:46 GMT 1
It almost looks like if I am a Zionist. The only reason I am not a Zionist is because I am not a Jew. Also, there are Jews in Israel getting Polish passports (as EU passports) 'just in case' if something goes wrong in the Middle East. Germany of today is still a good place to live for Jews. Tufta, Yes, it goes both ways. European jews try to get Israeli passports in case it goes wrong over here and Israeli jews get Polish or German passports if it goes wrong over there. Ironic isn't it? The irony of Germany is the fact that you have a philosemitic Populist right, centre right and left there and a anti-semitic and Islamophobe (and anti-Polish) far right. And you have islamic anti-semitism in Germany too from Arabs, Maroccan berbers and Turks. Things can change in Germany too. Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on Oct 24, 2010 23:04:02 GMT 1
It almost looks like if I am a Zionist. The only reason I am not a Zionist is because I am not a Jew. No it does not But you haven't mentioned the secular Jews, who don't pray but still leave for Israel. Yes, ofcourse the secular jews are jews too, and also have the right to go to Israel. But there is a but. Israel is not an easy country, because the jewish law and orthodox judaism is more powerful there than in the diaspora jewish world. For instance a jew is only a person who has a jewish mother. Someone with a Jewish father and non-jewish mother can get troubles in Israel in the case of marriage and other legal issues. Israel wants a jewish majority and want to be a shelter for all the jews in the world, and therefor it is easy for secular jews to move to Israel. As long as there is no Orthodox majority with Halacha laws and strict opinions about who is a jew and who not. For instance a lot of Israeli's, seculer and orthodox doubt the jewishness of many Sovjet jews, because there were a lot of non jews who moved to Israel because they had jewish family members. Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on Oct 24, 2010 23:21:35 GMT 1
It almost looks like if I am a Zionist. The only reason I am not a Zionist is because I am not a Jew. If you see the Nazi Germany's actions during WWII towards Jews, the Holocaust, as something unique- - why dilute it? I undestand your clear and fair intentions, but the 'relativisation party' is alread there - in Western Europe. They take different perspective in purely relativistic reasons. If we say never again and mean it, we should never dilute industrial murder. Tufta, I don't want to dilute the memory of the holocaust as an unique industrial murder of a people. We should remember it and teach it to our children. That we as humanity have the duty and obligation to never let it happen in our environment in which we can prevent it with civil disobediance, sabotage and active help for persecuted people. We have the lessons of 1918 and 1933, we have to stop a development, a rise to power before it happens. Even by force if necassery. I think we must give the holocaust its rightious place in our society, history and education. After the second world war Europe changed for good in my opinion. Millions of people disapeared and many landscapes, villages, towns and cities changed for good. They were never the same again. With that Europe changed. It's modernity, economical and technological development was paved with blood and sacrifice. The younger generation forgets this easily. But I know that the reason that I have freedom, democracy and wealth, comes due to the Americans, Poles, Brits and Canadians who liberated my country, and due to the Marshall help we got. Something Poland did not get because it was given to the Sovjet influence sphere. In my opinion the Poles liberated themselves by delivering a great contribution to the liberation of Europe. People, concious people never forget that. And that is why many Poles belong to the rightious of the people. Pieter |
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But you haven't mentioned the secular Jews, who don't pray but still leave for Israel. Also, there are Jews in Israel getting Polish passports (as EU passports) 'just in case' if something goes wrong in the Middle East. Germany of today is still a good place to live for Jews.