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Post by tufta on Dec 10, 2010 9:02:52 GMT 1
It is a price that has to be paid to achieve a noble purpose. There is no unoble price worth paying for the most noble of purposes. Everything can be compared in 21 century. You should know it. Since you think that everything may be compared in 21 centrury, I will even say more. The communists taking away the property from the people, their houses, manors, estates said it is the price that has to be paid to achieve a noble purpose. Even killing, torturing people was named like that. |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 10, 2010 9:27:57 GMT 1
Tufta, Maybe because Social democracy is outdated, did not meet the reforms of its time and does not appeal to the ethics, values, disires, and convictions of the people. In Poland people vote between one (centre-) right brand and another rightwing brand. The old polarisation between left and right have changed between a polarisation between " right" and " right". PO and PiS! A Pro-European one and a Euro-sceptic one! A European (rightwing) liberal government on one side and a chauvinistic conservative opposition on the other side. All over Europe Labour ( Social-democracy) is in tertreat! The left is in crisis and the centre-right has temporary power. From the British conservatives you see that they united centre-right, rightwing and centre-left ideas very smartly. Pieter Pieter, Bonobo meant that people don't vote for the SLD because they are against religion in schools. Both assumptions are highly disputable. First - people do vote for SLD. For instance the mayor if Kraków is from SLD (and he was formerly in PZPR), and generally SLD received around 15% of votes. So even the title of the thread is not very realistic, the social democracy in Poland was in crisis, this was the price paid for being mostly postcommunist. But this is changing with time and the postcommunist elements are fading. Youg Polish activists with views on the left joing SLD and don't care about its roots. This is a history to them. The second assumption is disputable as well. There are a lot of people (for instance myself) who are against religion in schools and who don't vote for SLD, but for PO. It is simply a secondary matter for most people, and the social reality in Poland today is that only extremists put it as their first-target. However it is slowly changing and my prediction is that in 10-15 years, midly and without havoc religion classes will leave public schooling. Which I am looking forward to. Catholic schools in Poland. Yes they are very fine, joyful schools. Unfortunately not every family in Poland can afford it, as they are by rule paid, expensive, private schools. There are some schools where the tuitition depends on family income, or where it is unified but on the low level like KIK schools. But there are still few schools of this kind , and too often they are elitist and at the same time strict in choice of the pupils, depending on their family background. For instance a child of Roman Giertych was accepted into one of such schools, while a child of Radosław Sikorski was not. Ethics is schools instead of religion. Unfortunately only part of the schools have teachers for ethics, in result the pupils who do not attend religion are left without a class. Unfortunately too often the religion class is not the first or the last lesson, so they can't just go home. Also it happens, in small, conservative twon and villages those who do not attend reilgion are stigmatized. In the first classes the religion classes is equal to making the kids ready for the First Communion. Too often they get notes for how they pray for instance (sic!). Yes, the 'quality' of contact with God is being evaluated. All that is done using also the tax money of parents wishing that the religion is not part of education in public schooling. You have a point there Tufta! Even the Roman Catholic schools aren't that strict in the Netherlands. They are schools with a Roman Catholic background and flavour, but not private schools or fundamentalistic schools. Also non Catholics go there, because the education there is good! I understand your position, and you have your ethical and democratic right to that opinion. Maybe if people like you in PO and people from PiS and other secular parties joyn forces in the Polish parlaiment the situation can be changed. On Dutch schools ethics is teached in " society" classes, the English word for it is Civics ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civics ). In these classes pupils learn about their society, the values in that society and the things they need as a citizen of that society. I don't know if it is exactly the same as your " ethics". (Is it the same as the French philosophy classes in school). Ethics are ethics, and they are important in a persons life, I agree with you. Pieter |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 10, 2010 23:12:42 GMT 1
There is no unoble price worth paying for the most noble of purposes. Machiavelli said that. It is a shame you quote him.  Since you think that everything may be compared in 21 centrury, I will even say more. The communists taking away the property from the people, their houses, manors, estates said it is the price that has to be paid to achieve a noble purpose. Even killing, torturing people was named like that. Hey, I said in 21 century. You can`t bring up things which hapenned in 20th century and compare them to the present! |
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Post by tufta on Dec 11, 2010 10:04:35 GMT 1
There is no unoble price worth paying for the most noble of purposes. Machiavelli said that. It is a shame you quote him. No, Bo. Machiavelli said exactly the opposite... |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 11, 2010 18:06:20 GMT 1
Machiavelli said that. It is a shame you quote him. No, Bo. Machiavelli said exactly the opposite... What did he say actually.  |
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Post by tufta on Dec 11, 2010 18:55:09 GMT 1
No, Bo. Machiavelli said exactly the opposite... What did he say actually. Compare - Tufta: Yes they are. They don't have to publicly declare their viewpoint, to which they are forced. Thier parents have to pay for unwanted lessons (by their taxes). And so on. Bonobo: It is a price that has to be paid to achieve a noble purpose. = The end justifies the meansTufta: There is no unoble price worth paying for the most noble of purposes. = no noble purpose is worth unnoble price = direct negation of The end justifies the meansBonobo: Machiavelli said that. It is a shame you quote him. Tufta: No, Bo. Machiavelli said exactly the opposite...  |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 11, 2010 21:59:39 GMT 1
Compare - Tufta: Yes they are. They don't have to publicly declare their viewpoint, to which they are forced. Thier parents have to pay for unwanted lessons (by their taxes). And so on. Bonobo: It is a price that has to be paid to achieve a noble purpose. = The end justifies the meansTufta: There is no unoble price worth paying for the most noble of purposes. = no noble purpose is worth unnoble price = direct negation of The end justifies the meansBonobo: Machiavelli said that. It is a shame you quote him. Tufta: No, Bo. Machiavelli said exactly the opposite... Perfect soliloquy. Thanks. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Machiavelli said that. It is a shame you quote him. No, Bo. Machiavelli said exactly the opposite... A bo mnie zmyliły!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Now I know. Thanks again! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 11, 2010 22:20:09 GMT 1
All that is done using also the tax money of parents wishing that the religion is not part of education in public schooling. That is democracy. If the vote was organised today, I am sure the supporters of religion in schools would win. It is simply a secondary matter for most people, and the social reality in Poland today is that only extremists put it as their first-target. Me an extremist? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I estimate it will take longer than that. |
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Post by tufta on Dec 11, 2010 23:06:07 GMT 1
Now I know. Thanks again! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You are welcome! |
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Post by tufta on Dec 11, 2010 23:09:01 GMT 1
The point was that I already know you are NOT an extremist. Thus I was surprised you mention it etc etc etc. But now I have understood it was just teasing your dear friend tufta. exactly as with the auntie with moustache issue btw ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 19, 2010 1:56:03 GMT 1
The point was that I already know you are NOT an extremist. Thus I was surprised you mention it etc etc etc. I was surprised the issue is so important to you, when you declared you won't vote for a party because it is for taking religion out of schools. Actually, I don`t care (give a s...t) what Polish post-communists want to pass, introduce, change etc in Poland today. I only remember my mother`s tears on the day the martial law was declared in 1981. And I will never forget them. My support for leftists would be in a way a betrayal of my mother`s memory, wouldn`t it? I hope you don`t mind. I cannot resist being impish from time to time. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 19, 2010 11:05:30 GMT 1
My support for leftists would be in a way a betrayal of my mother`s memory, wouldn`t it? You have no reason to support the leftists. You want religion teached at school, and are a centre-right PO supporter. So you don't have to betray your mother. |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 19, 2010 11:14:41 GMT 1
That's the great thing about democracy. You have your opinion and Tufta and I have another opinion. I believe (like) Tufta in the teaching of ethics on schools, but also believe that part of history, culture or philosophy classes should be 'the awareness' of our Christian heritage.
My ideal would be that part of the history lessons would be teaching about the religions and mythologies that existed and exist, like I learned in my one year of history teacher education in Amsterdam. Poland is a Roman Catholic nation and pupils should know about the roots of that, but in the same time to much influence of the church and clergy in schools is not good, because of separation of church and state, and the importance of general education, which shouldn't be influenced by theology, ideology, any kind of indoctrination or single issue domination. The church is for the weekend, the evenings or the free time (after or before school). That is a secularist opinion I know! But that is the opinion of me, the secular Catholic.
Pieter
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Post by tufta on Dec 19, 2010 18:31:29 GMT 1
I hope you don`t mind. I cannot resist being impish from time to time. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Of course I don't mind. Just watch your step ;D |
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