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Post by Bonobo on Dec 16, 2010 21:54:20 GMT 1
Some families, especially those who are in opposition to the current government, are voicing demands to open the graves. They suppose that the remains buried there are not their deceased ones`. Would it matter to you? It wouldn`t matter to me in any way. What difference does it make?
Polish plane crash victims' bodies may be exhumed
The bodies of Poland's late president, his wife and those who died along with them in a plane crash may be exhumed because of fears the remains may have been mixed up.
By Matthew Day, Warsaw 2:52PM GMT 16 Dec 2010
A lawyer representing families of some of the victims of the April 10 disaster, which claimed 96 lives when President Lech Kaczynski's plane crashed in Russia, said he has information showing that the Russian autopsy reports were so muddled that it is probable that parts of different people may have been buried in different graves.
Rafal Rogalski said Polish prosecutors did not have comprehensive autopsy photographs, and that some of the numbering of human remains and documents was inaccurate, and in one case the eye colour of a victim is recorded incorrectly.
Doubts over just who is buried where have raised the prospect of exhuming the bodies, and Mr Rogalski said he has already received one exhumation request.
The apparently inadequate autopsy documents, the lawyer explained, cast doubt as to whether the graves of President Kaczynski and his wife Maria contain their actual bodies.
"I can't say for certain," he said during a radio interview. "Despite six months of investigation there is nothing definite."
The president and his wife were buried in the crypt of Kraków cathedral, the resting place of many of Poland's national heroes, after a state funeral.
The coffins containing the remains of the presidential couple and all those who died in the crash arrived from Russia sealed shut and received no formal inspection in Poland. |
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Post by jeanne on Dec 19, 2010 15:06:39 GMT 1
I voted that, yes, if there is some question in the matter, the question should be cleared up. I believe that details are important.
On the one hand you might say that it doesn't matter, that the dead are dead and it doesn't matter if their graves are marked correctly or not. BUT, it is a matter of historical record. Who knows what may occur in the future regarding this matter when certain questions could be answered by examining the remains? Not to have the remains in the properly marked graves would result in deceptive answers and a distortion of history. I'm against ANY kind of deception,
intended or otherwise.
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uncltim
Just born
I oppose most nonsense.
Posts: 73
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Post by uncltim on Dec 20, 2010 23:15:33 GMT 1
If the families question the identity of the remains, then by all means they should be exhumed and re-tested. I think it a bit strange that the coffins were not opened and documented when they arrived in Poland. I suppose expediancy prevailed during that difficult time.
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 20, 2010 23:37:58 GMT 1
If the families question the identity of the remains, then by all means they should be exhumed and re-tested. And that`s what I don`t understand. The impact of the crash disfigured the bodies to maximum extent. Families who went to Moscow to identify the remains had serious difficulties. They went through a long complicated identification process. Afterwards, Russians organised the coffins in which they put the remains. I cannot comprehend why it is so important to some people. I cannot imagine there are any other reasons than strictly political ones behind their demands to exhume and test the buried remains. Suppose they discover that non-family remains were buried in their family grave. Will all graves be opened to find the right ones? It is so senseless. |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 20, 2010 23:41:07 GMT 1
If the families question the identity of the remains, then by all means they should be exhumed and re-tested. I think it a bit strange that the coffins were not opened and documented when they arrived in Poland. I suppose expediancy prevailed during that difficult time. I think you forgot to vote. |
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uncltim
Just born
I oppose most nonsense.
Posts: 73
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Post by uncltim on Dec 20, 2010 23:53:13 GMT 1
I did forget.
I agree that there is no real tangible reason to exhume, but uncertainty fuels animosity in situations like this.
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 21, 2010 0:05:34 GMT 1
but uncertainty fuels animosity in situations like this. Because people are not able to accept certain obvious facts and they prefer to be troublemakers despite all circumstances. |
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uncltim
Just born
I oppose most nonsense.
Posts: 73
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Post by uncltim on Dec 21, 2010 0:28:34 GMT 1
I guess I could only put myself in their position and try to imagine what I would want to do. I really have no insight on the Polish/Russian relationship here. Can I assume there is a certain level of mis-trust? That would make some sort of sense then.
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Post by valpomike on Dec 21, 2010 4:38:50 GMT 1
Never ever, ever, trust the Russians, and if some thing can be found out from this, let it go on.
We, the people of the world want the truth, and only this.
Mike
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Post by tufta on Dec 21, 2010 9:03:34 GMT 1
I voted 'don't know'.
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Post by pjotr on Dec 21, 2010 10:06:31 GMT 1
I voted yes, if a DNA test is possible!
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Post by jeanne on Dec 21, 2010 21:38:00 GMT 1
I voted yes, if a DNA test is possible! Exactly! With the DNA tests available now-a-days, there's no excuse for errors in identification to have occurred, and if they have occurred they should be corrected! |
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Post by tufta on Dec 21, 2010 22:00:15 GMT 1
I voted yes, if a DNA test is possible! Exactly! With the DNA tests available now-a-days, there's no excuse for errors in identification to have occurred, and if they have occurred they should be corrected! You are both right of course. But the question was what would we do were we in the boots of the families - at least if I understood it correctly. The formal background is just as Bo has presented - there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve that coffins contain 'correct' remains. This is assured by the Polish officials present when the coffins were sealed in Russia. On the other hand some families actually and sincerely doubt that. No matter what reasons drive them - but some disbelieve sincerely. |
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Post by tufta on Dec 21, 2010 22:02:44 GMT 1
Exactly! With the DNA tests available now-a-days, there's no excuse for errors in identification to have occurred, and if they have occurred they should be corrected! You are both right of course. But the question was what would we do were we in the boots of the families - at least if I understood it correctly. The formal background is just as Bo has presented - there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve that coffins contain 'correct' remains. This is assured by the Polish officials present when the coffins were sealed in Russia. On the other hand some families actually and sincerely doubt that. No matter what reasons drive them - but some disbelieve sincerely. One more point - the bodies were lawfully identified before they were placed in the coffins. Some with DNA tests, few were simply identified by the family ( few due to large deformations). No corpse was placed in the coffin unidentified. |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 21, 2010 22:36:50 GMT 1
No corpse was placed in the coffin unidentified. The impact of the crash didn`t leave intact corpses in most cases. You can imagine what happened to bodies after the plane turned upside down, its roof hit the ground and carved a deep ditch in it. Parts of bodies were scattered all over the site. That is why I am against any investigation into buried remains. I believe it is a continuation of the political war that J. Kaczyński has been waging against current government. His claims about other, foreign remains in President`s coffin and a demand to carry out the exhumation is to imply that the Polish government didn`t properly see to burial procedures. He is playing the body card and I consider it sickening. |
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Post by tufta on Dec 22, 2010 21:28:54 GMT 1
No corpse was placed in the coffin unidentified. The impact of the crash didn`t leave intact corpses in most cases. You can imagine what happened to bodies after the plane turned upside down, its roof hit the ground and carved a deep ditch in it. Parts of bodies were scattered all over the site. That is why I am against any investigation into buried remains. I believe it is a continuation of the political war that J. Kaczyński has been waging against current government. His claims about other, foreign remains in President`s coffin and a demand to carry out the exhumation is to imply that the Polish government didn`t properly see to burial procedures. He is playing the body card and I consider it sickening. Very well said and agreed. But the poll question was what would I do were I a family member. I tried hard to imagine all that horror and couldn't. Thus I don't know. I found that Uncltim expressed the same problem. We should remember that besides ugly playing it political there are family members out there, full of suffering, sometimes led astray by unresponsible inteview of Mr. Chairman. |
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