Polish education system compared to others

[Bonobo]

I have wanted to start this thread for a long time. Today in the polishforums I came across a good post by American Elssha.

Our education system sucks... sorry... and I've suffered as a product of it. The parents have decided that educators are supposed to educate their children in everything from manners to academics. That has lead to kids having piss poor manners and an acutely weakened sense of family, but not a poor education.
The whole system is based on the idea that the pace should be set at such a level that everyone will learn... like the whole 'no child left behind' bull. Kids that should repeat a grade are passed along as not to congest the classes and lower a school's success rate. All this does is lower the educational standards till anyone who's half-conscious in class will be sure to pass with flying colors... anyone who actually pays attention is given an A 9/10 times. Even the whole 'honors class' thing doesn't make up for that, as by the time kids are separated they've already missed years of information other systems (like Poland) cram into their students and/or have learned that you don't need to study all that hard to get ahead and thus keep the pace only slightly faster.
Have you ever taken the SAT? My god... this is supposed to be the test colleges look at to determine your readiness and is supposed to reflect completion of most of your high school curriculum. This is a test that stresses subjects covered and forgotten by the time most entered junior high (6th grade). It's a total and utter joke.
Here kids practically don't know chemistry exists till junior or senior year of HS. How well can we possibly understand this stuff after one academic year of study, where they introduce a new symbolic language, new rules and concepts that have never even been hinted at before? At least physics is somewhat intuitive (to the point where i never more than half-listened to my teacher that year, after he spent over two hours explaining the amazing concept that magnets attract... honors physics, mind you).
From what my Polish friends tell me, a good deal of my first year of undergrad was all stuff they had long since covered (sometimes in more detail) in Liceum.



Before I explain in detail how Polish school works, I can say Elssha`s opinion might be close to truth. It has happened a few times that some of my students either came to my class from the USA or went abroad. They were very average achievers, even poor ones. However, in US or British schools they were treated as geniuses, stars. Head teachers were happy to have them in their schools and used to tell it to parents many times. Then, here, parents came to me to talk about their children`s problems and complained they didn`t understand what had happened - a star in US turned into an underachiever in Poland.
Polish students who have had American education experience say simply: material that Americans do in high school is done in our junior high schools. What they do at uni, is done in our high schools and so on.....
Remember, we are talking about schools in general, not highlighting best American universities or schools.

[Bonobo]

An article from British press about Polish students.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article3510811.ece

Tapping Poland’s brightest
Polish students at one of England’s most famous schools are rising to the top of the class.

It’s one of the most expensive private schools in Britain: send your daughter here to board for seven years and with extras such as uniform and games’ kit, you won’t see much change from £200,000.

For decades Cheltenham Ladies’ college – the word “chav” for the working classes is supposedly derived from the college’s slang for “Cheltenham average” – has turned out well-bred, well-educated young ladies. A roll call includes Kristin Scott Thomas, Mary Archer, Bridget Riley, Katharine Hamnett, Lisa Jardine, Gareth Peirce and Nicola Horlick.

But in recent years some of the school’s starriest performers have been a handful of Polish teenagers who have joined the sixth form on free scholarships worth about £55,000 apiece, covering two years of sixth form boarding fees.

Selected in their home country some arrived with stumbling English, little money and only a Polish state education under their belts. But their talent and hard work has left them outstripping many pupils who have had the benefit of the college’s pricey education since the age of 11. Studying for up to six A-levels, several have been snapped up by Oxbridge and Ivy League universities.

Education experts say that their achievements are a warning to British teenagers that the work ethic of clever Polish children, coupled with rigorous science and maths teaching at an early age, could see newcomers beating “complacent” British teenagers to the best university places and jobs.

“They have a hunger for success. and know from their background just how important a good education is for fulfilling yourself and having the best opportunities,” says Alan Smithers, director of Buckingham University’s Centre for Education Research.

“In this country we have become perhaps too complacent. We have enjoyed an established place in the world for a long time and do not feel as sharply as we should the need to achieve the best we can.”

Looking out over the college’s gardens from her office Vicky Tuck, the principal of the college, describes the backgrounds of some of her Polish high-flyers. “They are usually from modest homes. Homes where learning is greatly valued . . . and they do work very, very hard,” she says.

“We had one who needed money to buy socks – we do give them [£20 a week] pocket money,” says Tuck. But lack of ready cash didn’t deter her from studying: “She would get up in the very early morning to download lectures online from Har-vard and MIT [the Massachusetts Institute of Technology].”

Karolina Watras, the first Polish scholarship girl, won a place at Cambridge University to read history of art, where she got a first class degree.

Then there was Anna Labno, with six A grades at A-level, who was fought over by Cambridge and MIT. Anna turned Cambridge down for MIT, partly because the American university’s scholarship covered more of her costs.

Malgorzata Cholast also won a place at Cambridge, where she is still a student. This year the college – which has 865 pupils, most boarders – has two Polish scholarship girls: Agnieszka Bulatowicz, 17, and Gabriela Hajduk, 18.

Gabriela, who is taking six A-levels and studies about 10 hours a day, comes from a village in the south of Poland where her father is a car mechanic. Her mother not only looks after four children at home but also Gabriela’s extraordinary collection of 65 abandoned parrots.

She started the collection four years ago and says that the parrots have inspired her to study either zoology or animal behaviour at university (she is considering applying to Cambridge).

Gabriela, who admits that her English “did not exist” when she arrived, says that she is still occasionally thrown by the slang used by the Cheltenham girls: “prep” instead of “home-work”, for instance. But when it comes to doing prep Gabriela acknowledges that, yes, she probably works harder then many of her classmates, spending about four hours a night poring over her books.

Surprisingly, even though she is doing twice as many A-levels as most British children, she finds the syllabus easier than in Poland.

Not only do Polish children have to study 14 subjects for their sixth-form diploma but there are more surprise tests, too. However, classes at the college are much smaller: “There are only seven people in my geography class. There were 36 in Poland.”

Clad in school uniform of olive-green jumper and discreetly striped navy trousers Agnieszka – whose father, a doctor, cried when she won the scholarship – says that she too is studying six A-levels.

A star linguist, she wants to learn Chinese, possibly at Cambridge, before going into business. “Chinese has the reputation of being a very hard language – I want to rise to the challenge,” she says.

What do she and Gabriela make of the boarding school that is their new home? “It’s like a castle,” says Gabriela. Agnieszka reveals that before she arrived at the college, which is built on the site of the town’s former spa, her only encounter with English boarding schools came from the pages of Harry Potter.

“In Poland, I thought a prefect was something JK Rowling invented,” says Agnieszka. “It was shocking to find they exist. I had never heard of net-ball before either.

“Before I came here, I heard loads of things. The girls are so posh, from rich, good families. The truth is they are so nice and down-to-earth.”

There is just one thing about the college that Agnieszka would change: the taps. “You have two taps in bath-rooms in England: one is very hot and one is very cold,” she says. In Poland, by contrast, everyone has mixer taps. When her parents visited before Christmas her father observed, “They really do need Polish plumbers.”


And here is a comment made by a Britishman:

It's a disgrace, we cannot get back to the 3 "r"'s. Our schools turn out illiterates. The exam certs are no longer worth the paper they are printed on. Teach our children how to read and write first. Then only can we educate them further. Polish workers have the work ethic, and the EDUCATION.

[jeanne]

Feb 1, 2009 20:59:31 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

Education experts say that their achievements are a warning to British teenagers that the work ethic of clever Polish children, coupled with rigorous science and maths teaching at an early age, could see newcomers beating “complacent” British teenagers to the best university places and jobs.

“They have a hunger for success. and know from their background just how important a good education is for fulfilling yourself and having the best opportunities,” says Alan Smithers, director of Buckingham University’s Centre for Education Research.

“In this country we have become perhaps too complacent. We have enjoyed an established place in the world for a long time and do not feel as sharply as we should the need to achieve the best we can.”

Personally, I think this quote expresses the heart of the problem in the U.S. While there are still many bright, motivated students here, there are also many we term 'entitled'; students who feel the world owes them a living...students whose parents have indulged their every whim and who now feel that they should be given good grades just because they've gotten everything else handed to them. I see a widespread lack of a work ethic. The reasons for this sad state of affairs are many, and I believe most originate with the parents... rampant materialism, self-indulgence, lack of religious training for children, lack of knowlege of what the word 'sacrifice' means, failure to take responsibility for one's actions...the list goes on and on. Unfortunately, while there are many successful, moral, and hardworking students, they are not as visible as the other group who seem to attract more attention, possibly because more tax money has to be thrown at the problem students?

I also object to the way schools are handling this issue. It seems many of the problem students end up being 'rewarded' for poor work habits and poor behavior in an effort to build up their self-esteem. For example: I was once teaching a fourth grade class. In that class was a child who had many problems, not of her own doing, but due to life circumstances. She was an enormous behavior and academic problem. A certain educational presenter came to give a presentation to the whole school, I forget what it was about, but they were going to pick someone from the entire school to help out, or to receive recognition in some way. The principal had arranged for this child to receive the honor. When her name was announced most of the students were horrified to see that she was given this honor...there were very many more deserving students. I totally understand that this child needed some intervention in her life to help her with her problems, but to set her up as an example before the school was wrong. All the well behaved, hard-working kids were thinking "...so you have to behave like her to get any honor." It was sad.

[locopolaco]

^^^

i haven't read anything besides the quote and your response to it and i'd say pretty right on. personally, i don't think that religious education has much effect on one's capabilities though. i like the church/state separation here. i think that it's the healthy way to go as america has too many to make it viable to attempt it as a general practice.

when i cam here i felt i had huge advantage over everyone in high school. i've seen most of the stuff in grade school on PL. my challenge was english, and more precisely the american version of it. literature was something completely new to me, so i did struggle with it. reading books and writing reports is hard to do when you're language skills are rookie. otherwise i was hardly challenged in public schools. private school was a different story and it made college seem like nothing new.

[gigi]

There are a lot of issues with American schools. The quality of education can vary significantly, and it is for a variety of reasons, including the experience level and attitude of the teacher, class sizes, the amount of funding that a school receives, and community support (in time and/or money).

Programs like 'No Child Left Behind' and merit pay increases for teachers have made things even more challenging (don't get me wrong here, I am all for paying good teachers what they are really worth, but these programs are usually designed and executed improperly and often reward the "bad" teachers with the "good").

Schools that have a diverse student population (socio-economic, racial, special needs, etc.) face even more challenges. With education funding being cut left and right, how do we effectively educate all of these children? Having children in the public school system, I struggle with these issues every day.

[Bonobo]

One remark before I forget it.
I never use the tests supplied to the textbooks we have in class. They are too easy, even the weakest students would be able to do them with flying colours.

I prepare my own tests which are really difficult and challenging.

Now you understand why Polish students are not ashamed to cheat at exams. That is their natural self defence against malicious teachers who increase the requirements level beyond necessity.
polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=polishblog&action=display&thread=254&page=5#9525

[gigi]

Feb 2, 2009 22:28:26 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

One remark before I forget it.
I never use the tests supplied to the textbooks we have in class. They are too easy, even the weakest students would be able to do them with flying colours.

I prepare my own tests which are really difficult and challenging.

Well at least they are probably level appropriate for your students.

When I was in college I took an Engineering math course that was extremely difficult. The professor was German, the teaching assistant (TA) was Korean, and they never met once during the course but the TA was supposed to give us weekly tests! Because the TA didn't know what the professor was lecturing us on, he was testing us on portions of his graduate level calculus tests. It was horrible!

[jeanne]

Feb 2, 2009 4:37:24 GMT 1 locopolaco said:

^^^

i haven't read anything besides the quote and your response to it and i'd say pretty right on. personally, i don't think that religious education has much effect on one's capabilities though. i like the church/state separation here. i think that it's the healthy way to go as america has too many to make it viable to attempt it as a general practice.

loco,

I wasn't referring to religious education in the schools...there's no way that would happen in the US....I meant religious education was lacking at home. I believe that religious education gives children a moral structure in their lives which translates to better behavior and a better work ethic, which both translate to better success in school.

[gigi]

Feb 3, 2009 2:46:36 GMT 1 jeanne said:

I wasn't referring to religious education in the schools...there's no way that would happen in the US....I meant religious education was lacking at home. I believe that religious education gives children a moral structure in their lives which translates to better behavior and a better work ethic, which both translate to better success in school.

I agree that religious education can be influential in a child's moral structure which in turn can affect behavior, work ethic, and school success. As Jeanne said, that religious education starts at home.

But I do want to make a point about private schools that are religion based - they are not always "better" schools that turn out "better" kids. They usually have certain advantages - more money for teachers and education materials, smaller class sizes, etc. - but sometimes the kids who receive such an education end up rebelling against it outside of school and behave "worse" than the kids who don't have more religious structure in their lives.

[valpomike]

So which do most think is better, Poland or U.S.A.? And why?

Mike

[tufta]

Feb 3, 2009 16:27:00 GMT 1 valpomike said:

So which do most think is better, Poland or U.S.A.? And why?

Mike

My three cents here then. USA is better in training the top-class specialists. Poland is better in general training. American specialist knows literally everything in his very narrow profesional specialization. Polish one knows more about the world in general, but knows not everything in his specialization. However he knows where to look for the missing knowledge. Further differences - Americans are the best in the world in large team work. (Germans take the second place). Poles are the best in one -person or small team work and in improvisation. Just a few loose ideas, and mind everyone these are my opinions only, I may be wrong

[Bonobo]

Feb 3, 2009 0:03:42 GMT 1 gigi said:

Well at least they are probably level appropriate for your students.

I receive right proportions, prescribed for high school testing. About 30% students get As and Bs, about 30% get Cs, next 30% get Ds and Es and the rest 10% get Fs.

The professor was German, the teaching assistant (TA) was Korean, and they never met once during the course but the TA was supposed to give us weekly tests! Because the TA didn't know what the professor was lecturing us on,

Hard to but we must believe it if you say so.

[Bonobo]

Feb 3, 2009 17:27:52 GMT 1 tufta said:

My three cents here then. USA is better in training the top-class specialists.

It is a result of gigantic funds spent on research in US. A brilliant student has an access to the newest technology and it is natural he/she is doomed to become a top-class specialist.

[gigi]

Feb 3, 2009 21:24:29 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

Feb 3, 2009 0:03:42 GMT 1 gigi said:

The professor was German, the teaching assistant (TA) was Korean, and they never met once during the course but the TA was supposed to give us weekly tests! Because the TA didn't know what the professor was lecturing us on,

Hard to but we must believe it if you say so.

I found it hard to believe as well. It was my rude awakening to the world of a large university, and my first "weeder" class (the nickname given to a class designed to weed out everyone but roughly the top 30% of the students). In this case I think they were trying for the top 3%

[jeanne]

Feb 3, 2009 17:27:52 GMT 1 tufta said:

My three cents here then. USA is better in training the top-class specialists. Poland is better in general training. American specialist knows literally everything in his very narrow profesional specialization. Polish one knows more about the world in general, but knows not everything in his specialization. However he knows where to look for the missing knowledge. Further differences - Americans are the best in the world in large team work. (Germans take the second place). Poles are the best in one -person or small team work and in improvisation. Just a few loose ideas, and mind everyone these are my opinions only, I may be wrong

I certainly can't speak for Polish schools, but Tufta seems to have a very perceptive opinion here. The percentage of good students in the U.S., the ones with intelligence and a good work ethic can rise to the top and excel in any field they wish. The institutions of higher learning here are top notch!

[gigi]

Feb 3, 2009 23:37:34 GMT 1 jeanne said:

The institutions of higher learning here are top notch!

2008 World University Rankings:

www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/

[jeanne]

Feb 3, 2009 14:40:49 GMT 1 gigi said:

I agree that religious education can be influential in a child's moral structure which in turn can affect behavior, work ethic, and school success. As Jeanne said, that religious education starts at home.

But I do want to make a point about private schools that are religion based - they are not always "better" schools that turn out "better" kids. They usually have certain advantages - more money for teachers and education materials, smaller class sizes, etc. - but sometimes the kids who receive such an education end up rebelling against it outside of school and behave "worse" than the kids who don't have more religious structure in their lives.

Yes, indeed, and it has been my experience that some families send their 'behavior problem' children to religion based schools to try to get them to 'shape up'. (and it doesn't always work!)

[locopolaco]

Feb 3, 2009 17:27:52 GMT 1 tufta said:

Feb 3, 2009 16:27:00 GMT 1 valpomike said:

So which do most think is better, Poland or U.S.A.? And why?

Mike

My three cents here then. USA is better in training the top-class specialists. Poland is better in general training. American specialist knows literally everything in his very narrow profesional specialization. Polish one knows more about the world in general, but knows not everything in his specialization. However he knows where to look for the missing knowledge. Further differences - Americans are the best in the world in large team work. (Germans take the second place). Poles are the best in one -person or small team work and in improvisation. Just a few loose ideas, and mind everyone these are my opinions only, I may be wrong

germans aren't as lazy as many americans but in general i do agree whith your observation.

Hard to but we must believe it if you say so.

not hard to believe as i had to deal with the same in some of my engineering classes. i had one prof that was just beyond the "little" stuff he was trying to teach us.

[locopolaco]

Feb 3, 2009 2:46:36 GMT 1 jeanne said:

Feb 2, 2009 4:37:24 GMT 1 locopolaco said:

^^^

i haven't read anything besides the quote and your response to it and i'd say pretty right on. personally, i don't think that religious education has much effect on one's capabilities though. i like the church/state separation here. i think that it's the healthy way to go as america has too many to make it viable to attempt it as a general practice.

loco,

I wasn't referring to religious education in the schools...there's no way that would happen in the US....I meant religious education was lacking at home. I believe that religious education gives children a moral structure in their lives which translates to better behavior and a better work ethic, which both translate to better success in school.

i don't necessarily. there are other ways that are more reality based. i think religious upbringing here in the usa can definitely border the fanatic at times. also, morals are way too interjected into the general society here. that was not the case in poland at all. i'm sure it's a bit different now but i sure hope poland keeps religion and church somewhat separated. i think the church definitely helped PL survive but it can also be bad influence if left unchecked.

[locopolaco]

Feb 4, 2009 2:10:22 GMT 1 jeanne said:

Feb 3, 2009 14:40:49 GMT 1 gigi said:

I agree that religious education can be influential in a child's moral structure which in turn can affect behavior, work ethic, and school success. As Jeanne said, that religious education starts at home.

But I do want to make a point about private schools that are religion based - they are not always "better" schools that turn out "better" kids. They usually have certain advantages - more money for teachers and education materials, smaller class sizes, etc. - but sometimes the kids who receive such an education end up rebelling against it outside of school and behave "worse" than the kids who don't have more religious structure in their lives.

Yes, indeed, and it has been my experience that some families send their 'behavior problem' children to religion based schools to try to get them to 'shape up'. (and it doesn't always work!)

which, in general, only adds to the problem.

[jeanne]

Feb 4, 2009 2:40:54 GMT 1 locopolaco said:

i don't necessarily. there are other ways that are more reality based. i think religious upbringing here in the usa can definitely border the fanatic at times.

I think people can get that impression from paying attention only to the liberal media. Out in the 'trenches' where the real people are, it is definitely not so.

also, morals are way too interjected into the general society here.

Pity the society that does not have morals interjected into it!
A society without moral direction is doomed to travel only one direction...straight down!

[locopolaco]

Feb 4, 2009 2:54:22 GMT 1 jeanne said:

Feb 4, 2009 2:40:54 GMT 1 locopolaco said:

i don't necessarily. there are other ways that are more reality based. i think religious upbringing here in the usa can definitely border the fanatic at times.

I think people can get that impression from paying attention only to the liberal media. Out in the 'trenches' where the real people are, it is definitely not so.

it is extremely hard to see the light from within.

Pity the society that does not have morals interjected into it!
A society without moral direction is doomed to travel only one direction...straight down!

not everything is about morals which tend to differ quite a bit. look at all the christians foaming at their mouth to kill some ragheads. (muslims)

[tufta]

Feb 4, 2009 2:40:54 GMT 1 locopolaco said:

there are other ways that are more reality based. i think religious upbringing here in the usa can definitely border the fanatic at times. also, morals are way too interjected into the general society here. that was not the case in poland at all. i'm sure it's a bit different now but i sure hope poland keeps religion and church somewhat separated. i think the church definitely helped PL survive but it can also be bad influence if left unchecked.

yes, Loco, this is very well said.

[tufta]

Feb 3, 2009 21:30:56 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

Feb 3, 2009 17:27:52 GMT 1 tufta said:

My three cents here then. USA is better in training the top-class specialists.

It is a result of gigantic funds spent on research in US. A brilliant student has an access to the newest technology and it is natural he/she is doomed to become a top-class specialist.

Exactly. But this explains only one part. The unresolved part, and a real mystery to me, is why an American trully brillant specialist knows less about the world (has less general knowledge) than Polish one.

[gigi]

Feb 4, 2009 13:01:31 GMT 1 tufta said:

Exactly. But this explains only one part. The unresolved part, and a real mystery to me, is why an American trully brillant specialist knows less about the world (has less general knowledge) than Polish one.

Ego?

It jives with what Loco said about his college professor - that he was beneath the "little stuff" he was teaching his students.

Why trouble yourself with all of that other trivial stuff in life when you are so brilliant in your specialty? Or, maybe it is simply fear that you won't be as brilliant at the other stuff?

Americans are also well known for thinking that we are the best at everything - which of course, we are not (hello Detroit).

[Bonobo]

Feb 4, 2009 15:58:10 GMT 1 gigi said:

Americans are also well known for thinking that we are the best at everything - which of course, we are not (hello Detroit).

If they say and believe so, it must be true. Positive thinking works miracles. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[locopolaco]

Feb 4, 2009 15:58:10 GMT 1 gigi said:

Feb 4, 2009 13:01:31 GMT 1 tufta said:

Exactly. But this explains only one part. The unresolved part, and a real mystery to me, is why an American trully brillant specialist knows less about the world (has less general knowledge) than Polish one.

Ego?

It jives with what Loco said about his college professor - that he was beneath the "little stuff" he was teaching his students. Why trouble yourself with all of that other trivial stuff in life when you are so brilliant in your specialty? Or, maybe it is simply fear that you won't be as brilliant at the other stuff?

Americans are also well known for thinking that we are the best at everything - which of course, we are not (hello Detroit).

in the case of my prof it wasn't an ego problem. he was just brilliant at splitting atoms and teaching engineering physics was just too basic, i guess. he probably forgot more then i'll never know on that subject, kind of thing.

[locopolaco]

Feb 4, 2009 13:01:31 GMT 1 tufta said:

Feb 3, 2009 21:30:56 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

It is a result of gigantic funds spent on research in US. A brilliant student has an access to the newest technology and it is natural he/she is doomed to become a top-class specialist.

Exactly. But this explains only one part. The unresolved part, and a real mystery to me, is why an American trully brillant specialist knows less about the world (has less general knowledge) than Polish one.

because a brilliant specialist is only interested in the narrow subject they are specializing.. the other stuff is meaningless to a focused mind.

there is a great saying in america about what you describe polish people here: "jack of all trades, master of none". <- i'm definitely that. things bore me after a while.

[locopolaco]

Feb 4, 2009 12:56:44 GMT 1 tufta said:

Feb 4, 2009 2:40:54 GMT 1 locopolaco said:

there are other ways that are more reality based. i think religious upbringing here in the usa can definitely border the fanatic at times. also, morals are way too interjected into the general society here. that was not the case in poland at all. i'm sure it's a bit different now but i sure hope poland keeps religion and church somewhat separated. i think the church definitely helped PL survive but it can also be bad influence if left unchecked.

yes, Loco, this is very well said.

i just hope i'm not offending anyone. i just like to debate.

[jeanne]

Feb 4, 2009 13:01:31 GMT 1 tufta said:

Feb 3, 2009 21:30:56 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

It is a result of gigantic funds spent on research in US. A brilliant student has an access to the newest technology and it is natural he/she is doomed to become a top-class specialist.

Exactly. But this explains only one part. The unresolved part, and a real mystery to me, is why an American trully brillant specialist knows less about the world (has less general knowledge) than Polish one.

I think part of the answer has to do with attitude. Some Americans (either brilliant or not) simply see the U.S. as the center of the world, therefore they take no interest in what is going on beyond its borders. (Unlike those of us who spend our time delving into the mysteries of Polish culture! ;D ;D ;D)