Chopin

[pjotr]

Apr 4, 2011 17:22:51 GMT 1 tufta said:

Did you notice one common trait in their emploi?

Second guess? That they are all great and succesful concert Painists?

[pjotr]

Horowitz (Chopin) Ballade in G Minor

[pjotr]

Apr 4, 2011 18:05:35 GMT 1 tufta said:

Dear Pieter, old friend!

coming from the land of Gombrowicz -Mrozek-Witkacy and few other guys of the type tradition, and not being half as witty as they are. I had to acquire the basic Darwinian law of mockery defence - if you are not sure, reply in all seriousnees - so I repeat: exemplary. Exemplary!

;D ;D

And from the land of Mikołaj Kopernik, Maria Curie, Czesław Miłosz, Karol Wojtyła, Antoni Zygmund, Roman Polański and Krzysztof Kieślowski, Tadeusz Konwicki and Tadeusz Kantor.

Tufta,

Here I wasn't mocking or making a joke but serious. I did not understood the Lombroso example you mentioned in your reply to my description of an exemplary (in the positive sense, to follow and to adjust to). Darwinism in my view is the rational, empirical, Western, cause and effect, research, scientific way of development. The charm of our culture and "Western philosophy of life" is that our Darwinistic based societies, with it's religious, cultural and customs based society is multi layered. That is the charm of life of the Polish people in Poland of the country Poland (the soil, the architecture, the Polish church and that what the country made what it is) and through Poland (the develoment of time of Poland with the Poles), the Poles that created Poland, create Poland today and will create Poland in the future.

You are part of that, of that oral tradition of Polish language and Polish sounds, Polish education, a Polish upbringing, a Polish civilization, a pluriform Polish society, Polish debate, Polish music and foreign music, a Polish heritage, Polish experiances and all your experiances abroad. There are many benefits in that! I will never mock that! I don't know Polac jokes, and there is no tradition of Polish jokes here like in the USA. Neighbours always mock their neighbours, so we mock the Belgians and Germans and the Germans and Belgians mock us back.

Pieter

[pjotr]

The problem of myself is sometimes being to serious and that English is not my first language, and that is a handicap, I can't make it a tool like you can use Polish as a tool of language in the written word with your compatriots and I can use Dutch to communicate, use humor, debate or quarrel in a polite manner with my compatriots.

Altough German is more difficult sometimes it is easier to communicate or explain things in German, because it is close. But in general we will always have the handicap that we are not as fluent in English like the native speaker.

I am suprised how far we got on both forums in our conversations and correspondences.

[tufta]

Apr 4, 2011 18:57:03 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I am suprised how far we got on both forums in our conversations and correspondences.

People are the same, exactly the same all over the world, if we look at their core. If both sides act on similar level, don't have ego problems, and additionally assume good faith and act in good faith they can get really far, sky is the limit, in conversation or dispute, in spite of language, background, culture, whatever, differences or even incompabilities.

[pjotr]

Apr 4, 2011 20:12:11 GMT 1 tufta said:

Apr 4, 2011 18:57:03 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I am suprised how far we got on both forums in our conversations and correspondences.

People are the same, exactly the same all over the world, if we look at their core. If both sides act on similar level, don't have ego problems, and additionally assume good faith and act in good faith they can get really far, sky is the limit, in conversation or dispute, in spite of language, background, culture, whatever, differences or even incompabilities.

Tufta,

Wise words from an intelligent man who has traveled and seen the world.
I have maybe traveled less, but I have met and spoken (communicated, discussed, debated and exchanged ideas) with people of many ethnic and cultural backgrounds and persuasions. Roman Catholic, Calvninst, Lutheran, Evangelical, Ashkenazi jewish, Sephardi jewish, Sunni Arab (Egyptian), Shia (Iranian), Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds (and they are differant I can tell you), and many other branches and cultures of humanity. Atheist secular fundementalists, hardline Communist, and the most wonderful kind of secular humanist liberal people next to that. I had my prejudices and maybe even traces of xenophobia towards let's say Arabs, Berbers (North-African people from the Magrheb), Russians and even Germans. Life and experiance teached me that there are wonderful and great Germans, Arabs, Berbers and Germans today. That fits in your description. My life was threatened during a robbery in 1991 in Amsterdam by North-Africans. For nearly 15 years I (collectively) disliked Maroccans as a group. And they are bad in the news. *The robbers, vandalists, thieves, hooligans and thugs of that group are stil there, but in the same time there are a Maroccan-Dutch mayor of Rotterdam, Maroccan-Dutch parlaimentarians, doctors, university students, writers, fashion designers and etc. That is confusing, because you want to dislike the whole group (like the Russians, Urkainians, Baltic people, Slovaks and some Poles disliked the jews as a group, nation, people and culture). My dislike of Maroccans and Arabs (due to the bad news, and experiances of others I knew with Arabs) was absolute, I did not like their features, their look, their dress, their mentality (or what I thought was their mentality), their behavior, their accent of Dutch or speaking in Maroccan in staid of Dutch and go on and on. And now make that collectively. Not Pieter but the majority of Native Dutch (both Rightwing, centrist and Leftist) have that opinion about Maroccans and other non-Western foreigners in general. That that is the opinion, view, course, ideology and stance of the Dutch Politics, media/press and people. Then you do not have your opinion that all people are the same, but we with our Western civilization, culture, education and etiquette and THEY, with their primitive mountain culture, uncivilized behavior and mentality and large families (in Dutch or European view also a proof of backwardness, because we have 2 or 1 kids or none). Both sides have ego. Some of those foreigners, muslim migrants find the Dutch, Western-European culture an inferior Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفار kuffār) Culture of people who "disbelieve" in one God - atheists and polytheists. Some of their imams propagate the opposite of integration and assimiliation. They state that these Muslims should segregate into their communities in a sort of mental and cultural getho's. That these people should stay like they were in the countries they came from, and teach the rituals, culture and customs of the country they came from. In these circles Maroccan (Berber or Arab), Turkish or Kurd is spoken instaid of Dutch. These people have ego problems, because they have their honour culture, closed system and experiance both an inferiority complex due to the rejection of the non-Mulsim majority and an superiority-complex, because they see their cultural heritage and customs as superior towards the hedonist, decadent and "free" Western lifestile.

In the same time the Natives with their Nationalistic and Populistic stance, and xenophobia, discriminatory attitude, racism and Islamophobia reject these newcommers over and over again. So there is a mutual segregation and rejection.
And in such a climate of stereotypes, egocentrism in the form of ethnocentrism it is difficult to see the other as the same, exactly the same.

Tufta, you had the chance to travel and see the world and know the people of that world, I had the chance to see the people of that world in my country and communicate with them. I also had the chance to come over my past, over a past of tensions, hurt families (by Germans and Russians in Poland and the Netherlands), and I was tought by my Polish mother to judge individuals and people on their actions, reliability and their word. You have to take care with people, people of every nationality. Because they can trick you, hurt you or betray you after you invested time, energy and in some times friendship in them. From the other side there are wonderful people in any nation. I have friends and colleages (Old and young people) who had spend wonderful times in Arab countries, and told me about the friendlyness and hospitaly of these people. Some of these people in the same time had troubles with these same Arabs and the regimes. My former art and culture colleage of the radio became fed up with Arabia, and started learning Chinese in staid of Arab (She speaks Arabic, and visited Egypt, Yemen, Syria and Jordan). Due to the historical connection between the Netherlands and Israel others have a special relationship and friendships with Israeli's. Others were treated badly in Israel and had a problem with the treatment of Israeli arabs and the Palestinians in the West-Bank over there. They spoke about the experiances overthere. Bakc to our place. You have wonderful Dutch and Polish people and terrible egocentric Poles and Dutchmen.

Pieter

* Unfortunately you have Native Dutch robbers, vandalists, thieves, hooligans and thugs too. In every nation you have them. In one nation more than in the other.

[tufta]

People are even alike in the way they dislike, or have prejudice, against other groups

If you take a large group of people - the way it collectively operates, "feels", acts, "thinks" is rarely formed according to how an individual operates in his inner, pure and clear self. In this deep self all people are more or less the same. The outer layers are different and in this outer layers is culture, and all the other stuff, beautifull and ugly, which differentiate societies from each other.

[pjotr]

Apr 5, 2011 6:48:01 GMT 1 tufta said:

People are even alike in the way they dislike, or have prejudice, against other groups

If you take a large group of people - the way it collectively operates, "feels", acts, "thinks" is rarely formed according to how an individual operates in his inner, pure and clear self. In this deep self all people are more or less the same. The outer layers are different and in this outer layers is culture, and all the other stuff, beautifull and ugly, which differentiate societies from each other.

Yes, true, it's true! I don't want to be prejudice, to dislike people or have anything against them. But life has teached me that you can see the individual as he or she is, but that he or she for a great part is determined by the family background, social class or the collective of culture or ethnicity he or she comes from.

In the same time there are always wonderful individuals who do not have the "negative" or "positive" characteristics the people he or she comes from. For instance I as a non-Pole can have and had the image of the typical Pole. In contrast or contradiction with that my mother taught me or told me that the typical Pole does not exist. And she is true, because inside and outside Poland I experianced very differant types of Poles. Let's say in European perspective I saw Northern-European types, Southern-European types, West-European types and East-European types. Some blond, blue eyed and simular to Danes, other Southern Brunette and temperamentful like Italians, again other black like Bulgarians (Black eyes and black hair), and again others Eastern-Slav like Russians or Ukrainains. (and ofcourse there are Ukrainians and Russians in Poland with their Orthodox churches).


St. Spirit Orthodox church Bialystok


St. Mary Magdalene's Russian Orthodox Church in Warsaw's Praga district

[pjotr]

Apr 5, 2011 6:48:01 GMT 1 tufta said:

People are even alike in the way they dislike, or have prejudice, against other groups

If you take a large group of people - the way it collectively operates, "feels", acts, "thinks" is rarely formed according to how an individual operates in his inner, pure and clear self. In this deep self all people are more or less the same. The outer layers are different and in this outer layers is culture, and all the other stuff, beautifull and ugly, which differentiate societies from each other.

Tufta,

Yes, in their inner, pure and clear self all people are more or less the same, but as you mention culture, family background, religion, political mindset and a personal development and experiances in life make people differant from eachother.

But, yes, in this deep self all people are more or less the same.

Cheers

[pjotr]

They all have had a childhood, father and mother, brothers or sisters, a religious or cultural community, schools, a social life, aspirations, the attraction to the other sex, love lifes, friends and colleages, shared human experiances, a heart, mind and soul, the same desires, the same fear and anguish. Unfortunately they kill one another, hurt eachother and hunt eachother for thousands or millions of years. One time they built a great civilization, later they destroy it (First and Second world war. Europe is uglier today than it was in the 19th century).

But I am an optimist and hope that Evolution will bring us upward and not downwards. I am not G'd, so I don't know what the Future will looks like or brings us.

[pjotr]

What would Frédéric Chopin think about this?

[pjotr]

Chopins Polish patriotism

Chopin's Polish biographer Zdzisław Jachimecki notes that "Chopin at every step demonstrated his Polish spirit – in the hundreds of letters that he wrote in Polish, in his attitude to Paris' Polish émigrés, in his negative view of all that bore the official stamp of the powers that occupied Poland." Likewise Chopin composed music to accompany Polish texts but never musically illustrated a single French or German text, though he numbered among his friends several great French and German poets, writers and artists, like George Sand, Alexandre Dumas, Honoré de Balzac and Heinrich Heine and the painter Eugène Delacroix.

According to his English biographer Arthur Hedley, Chopin "found within himself and in the tragic story of Poland the chief sources of his inspiration. The theme of Poland's glories and sufferings was constantly before him, and he transmuted the Polish Folk rhythms and melodies of his youth into enduring art forms."

In asserting his own Polishness, Chopin, according to Jachimecki, exerted "a tremendous influence [toward] the nationalization of the work of numerous later composers, who have often personally – like the Czech Smetana and Norway's Grieg – confirmed this opinion..."

The Hungarian composer Franz Liszt, Chopin's contemporary, referred to Chopin's Polish homeland when he wrote that Chopin "may be ranked first among musicians who have had an individual poetic sense of a particular nation." He referred to Chopin as "a Polish artist." Composer Robert Schumann acknowledged the strength of Chopin's personal reaction to Russia's suppression of the November 1830 Uprising when he wrote that in Chopin's music one found "guns buried among the flowers."

Some Polish writers have used, for Chopin's surname, the Polonized phonetic spelling, "Szopen".

The Great Immigration

In the autumn of 1831 Chopin arrived in Paris where he met many fellow countrymen. Following the national defeat, thousands of exiles, including participants of the armed struggle, politicians, representatives of Polish culture, such as the writer Julian Ursyn Niemcewicz, Romantic poets Adam Mickiewicz and Juliusz Slowacki, and the Warsaw friends of Chopin, the poets Stefan Witwicki and Bohdan Zaleski, sought refuge from the Russian occupation in a country and city which they found most friendly. Chopin made close contacts with the so-called Great Emigration, befriended its leader Prince Adam Czartoryski, and became a member of the Polish Literary Society, which he supported financially. He also attended emigré meetings, played at charity concerts held for poor emigrés, and organised similar events.

[pjotr]

George Sand, said about Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin:

"The heart of his people beats in his chest. I know of no other musician who is a greater patriot than Chopin. He is more Polish than any Frenchman has ever been French, each and every German German and Italian Italian. He is a Pole and nothing but a Pole, and his soul comes out from the destroyed, occupied Poland, and his music."

[pjotr]

[pjotr]

The Croatian pianist, Ivo Pogorelić

[pjotr]

Chopins poetry

www.plushmusic.tv/movies/29M/interview-chopins-poetry.html

[Bonobo]

Funeral march

[tufta]

... not Chopin, but...

[Bonobo]

New photo of Chopin discovered
19.01.2017 13:06
A previously unpublished portrait of Fryderyk Chopin has been discovered, one of only three known photographs of the Polish pianist and composer.
The newly discovered reproduction of a daguerreotype of Fryderyk Chopin. Photo: Polish Institute in Paris.The newly discovered reproduction of a daguerreotype of Fryderyk Chopin. Photo: Polish Institute in Paris.



The newly discovered photograph is likely a reproduction of a daguerreotype taken around 1847.

It was discovered by Chopin-enthusiast Swiss physicist Alain Kohler in the living room of another fan of the Polish musician.

Kohler, together with Radio France Internationale’s Gilles Bencimon, compared the picture with other portraits of the composer, which included photographs, paintings, drawings and sculptures, and concluded the reproduction is nearly certainly of Chopin and unlikely to be a forgery.

However, it is still unclear what happened to the original daguerreotype.

The two previously known photos of Chopin are also reproductions; the originals were lost in World War II. (vb)

Source: Poland.pl, Polish Institute in Paris

[Bonobo]

Hand-written Chopin manuscript bought by Warsaw museum
01.03.2017 15:44
The Fryderyk Chopin Museum in Warsaw has bought a hand-written manuscript of a piano ballade by the great Polish composer.
The Chopin ballade score. Photo: PAP/Jakub KamińskiThe Chopin ballade score. Photo: PAP/Jakub Kamiński


The manuscript was purchased from a private collector at an auction in London in November. It was officially delivered to the museum’s authorities on Wednesday.

The partial manuscript for the Ballade in G minor Op. 23 is the only manuscript for a Chopin ballade in Poland.

“Chopin is one of the most important figures in our culture”, Poland’s Culture Minister Piotr Gliński said.

Artur Szklener, director of the Fryderyk Chopin Institute, said that such manuscripts are “invaluable treasures of culture and sources of knowledge about the composer and his work.”

The Ballade in G minor Op. 23 was composed by Chopin around 1835 in Paris.

[Bonobo]

Chopin died from tuberculosis-related complications: experts
03.11.2017 12:05
Polish composer Fryderyk Chopin probably died from tuberculosis-related complications, according to Polish scientists whose findings are to be published in the American Journal of Medicine.

After Chopin died aged 39 in 1849, his heart was placed in a church in Warsaw. In 2014 a team of Polish scientists began to examine it, attempting to establish the cause of his death.

The heart showed life-threatening inflammation of the pericardium, the fibrous sac surrounding the heart, which suggests he suffered from chronic tuberculosis, according to a report in Nature magazine.

But the team was not allowed to remove the heart from the jar in which it was stored.

Doubts remain as to whether the heart was actually Chopin's and some experts have suggested that the composer, who was sickly since early childhood, may have had cystic fibrosis or other illnesses. Without DNA tests, neither of these things can be confirmed.

Chopin was born in 1810 in Żelazowa Wola, near Warsaw.

He died in Paris on 17 October, 1849 and, according to Nature magazine, had requested an autopsy out of fear of being buried alive, a common 19th-century phobia.

His body was buried at Paris's Père-Lachaise cemetery, but his sister put his heart in a jar of alcohol and took it to Warsaw, where it was sealed in the pillar of the Holy Cross Church, Nature magazine said. (vb/pk)

Source: PAP

[Bonobo]

Chopin music in an old American cartoon. Funny and educational.

[Bonobo]

Japanese are so fond of Chopin they even skate to his music.

Yuzuru Hanyu

[Bonobo]

www.onet.pl/turystyka/onetpodroze/kolekcjoner-odkryl-nieznany-portret-fryderyka-chopina/t97625q,07640b54


An unknown portrait of Chopin. Master doesn't look like in textbooks
A small, damaged portrait of Fryderyk Chopin, bought at an antiques market, turned out to be a sensational discovery. Experts have determined that it is one of the few images created during the life of the great composer.

Joanna Lamparska
15 thousand
October 4, 2021, 13:30

It is not known what history the painting has and how it got on the flea market in a town near Lublin
The samples showed the presence of pigments that allow the painting to be dated to the 1840s.
The few portraits of Chopin are generally idealized, in this portrait the composer is not "beautiful"
At that time, ailing Chopin was between thirty and forty years of age
More such topics can be found on the main page of Onet.pl


It's a story like from a movie. Mr. Maciej is thirty years old, runs an event company and lives in eastern Poland. 28 years ago, Maciej's uncle and godfather bought a damaged portrait of Chopin on the flea market near Lublin. A small painting measuring 29.5 x 23.3 cm, painted in oil technique, with time became a somewhat forgotten part of the house. Uncle, historian and avid collector collects everything, but due to the necessity of life, he has recently decided to sell the portrait of the Polish composer. For a small amount, Mr. Maciej bought it and gave the portrait for an expert opinion. Then a bomb exploded . It turned out that the painting was unique, one of the few portraits of Chopin painted during his lifetime. The value of this monument cannot be estimated.

Unknown portrait of Fryderyk Chopin after conservationUnknown portrait of Fryderyk Chopin after conservation - Arch. priv.
- This painting went through a lot, it was my first thought. It actually fell into my hands in a moribund state . It had to be kept in poor conditions, it was probably flooded by water - says prof. related dr hab. Dariusz Markowski, a conservator of works of art, who was the first to examine the canvas.

The vestibule of death in Poznań, or how to come back from the afterlife
It is not known what history the painting has and how it got on the flea market in a town near Lublin. Mr. Maciej's godfather bought it for several dozen zlotys . The portrait was previously cut out of the frame, which may suggest that it was hidden, possibly stolen, and its fate was dramatic. But that's just a guess. On the other hand, the results of the research and conservation analysis by prof. Markowski, which lasted several months, however, leave no doubts.


Unknown portrait of Fryderyk Chopin before conservation

"The analyzed image was painted on a canvas support on a proprietary white mortar, in an oil technique.

Painting method - alla prima.

In all analyzed samples of the mortar and the paint layer, the presence of pigments was found, allowing the dated image to be dated to the 1840s.

The state of preservation of the individual layers of the structure, the degree of damage (oxidation of the canvas), cracks in the painting layer allow us to date the work to the 1840s. "

The collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk ChopinThe collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk Chopin - Arch. priv.

- The painting is an original work created in the 1840s and is one of the few portraits of Fryderyk Chopin made during his lifetime - believes prof. Markowski.

- I'm happy! I started to follow Chopin's life closely, I read about his conversion, I also converted two years ago - says Mr. Maciej. - When this portrait was painted, Chopin was between the ages of thirty and forty, he was then a very sick and suffering man .

The collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk ChopinThe collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk Chopin - Arch. priv.
Around 1836, Chopin began to be seriously ill (including tuberculosis), and recently there was also a view that he might have suffered from cystic fibrosis . The turbulent relationship with George Sand and his illness left a deep mark on the composer's life.

- Few of Chopin's portraits are generally idealized , while this portrait shows a slim, ailing man. The composer is not "beautiful" here , he was shown in a naturalistic way. - says prof. Markowski. It is still unknown who painted the portrait. The painting is signed , but only the painter's name Alfred and Pinxit (painted in Latin) can be read.

The collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk ChopinThe collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk Chopin - Arch. priv.
- The painting with the image of Chopin, which I assume was created during his lifetime, is rare both on the art market and in museum collections - says prof. Markowski.

When Mr.Maciej found out that the painting he had bought was indeed the original, he was shocked to lose control of the steering wheel and his uncle fell into a ditch with the car . Fortunately, nothing happened to anyone. After receiving the analysis of the painting, Mr. Maciej tried to interest several Polish museums in it , but he did not even receive a reply from any of these institutions.

The collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk ChopinThe collector discovered an unknown portrait of Fryderyk Chopin - Andrzej Pustelnik
Supported by information from the Fryderyk Chopin Institute, the current owner of the painting emphasizes that the CHOPIN brand is valued at over PLN 3 billion (more than Orlen, PZU or PKO BP), and among all composers, producers of music tracks in Hollywood most often choose Chopin. The term "Chopin" was more frequently searched for than the term "shopping" in Google search engines on the day the results of the last Chopin Competition were announced.

How much is the newly discovered portrait of Chopin worth? According to prof. Markowski, you should be very careful in giving specific prices, because the art market has its own rules and can be capricious. In the opinion prepared for the current owner, the conservator emphasizes that in assessing the value of this painting, important is its subject, i.e. the portrait of Fryderyk Chopin in an oval.

"Due to the fact that there are very few portraits of Chopin painted during his lifetime, the painting is of great historical importance and hence its material value may be high . The amount sold on October 30, 2019 by Christie's Auction House may be useful in assessing the value of the painting. at an auction in Paris, an unsigned portrait, attributed to the Italian painter Giambettino Cignaroli, depicting teenage Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, was valued at between 800,000 and 1.2 million euros. The painting was sold for 4.4 million euros. "

A painting by Giambettino Cignaroli, depicting the teenage Wolfgang Amadeus MozartGiambettino Cignaroli's painting of teenage Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - christies.com
Chopin's painting is now in a bank safe . On Thursday it was seen by Bożena Schmid-Adamczyk, the curator of the Fryderyk Chopin museum and George Sand in Majorca, a member of the Société Historique et Littéraire in Paris. The outstanding researcher came to Poland on the occasion of the 18th Chopin Competition, which began on October 2.

Bożena Schmid-Adamczyk, curator of the Fryderyk Chopin and George Sand museum in Majorca, member of the Société Historique et Littéraire in Paris, looks at Chopin's portrait. Photo taken on 09/30/2021Bożena Schmid-Adamczyk, curator of the Fryderyk Chopin and George Sand museum in Majorca, member of the Société Historique et Littéraire in Paris, looks at Chopin's portrait. Photo taken on September 30, 2021 - Andrzej Pustelnik
- The eminent specialist was glad that such a unique work of art had been found. We want to show them to the world in the near future - says Mr. Maciej. - It's an amazing experience for me. I would probably win the lottery more quickly than I would have found such a work of art!

[Bonobo]

Mar 3, 2018 20:24:17 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

Chopin music in an old American cartoon. Funny and educational.

How about other Chopin productions in films?

The Pianist - about a Jewish Polish musician saved by a German officer:

[naukowiec]

Very haunting, the music and the film.

[Bonobo]

Dec 30, 2021 20:46:21 GMT 1 naukowiec said:

Very haunting, the music and the film.

Yes. To lessen the tension, let me mention the post war film titled Chopin`s Youth. Paradoxically, there is a lot of local folk music in it.