Songs which run really deep

[tufta]

Do you have any songs in your memory which run really deep? I don't mean just nice ones or likeable ones, don't put them here. I am asking you to present here the songs which are REALLY special for you. Are you prepared to disclose them, all of you, forumembers?

[Bonobo]

Oct 3, 2010 22:21:23 GMT 1 tufta said:

Do you have any songs in your memory which run really deep? I don't mean just nice ones or likeable ones, don't put them here. I am asking you to present here the songs which are REALLY special for you. Are you prepared to disclose them, all of you, forumembers?

Whenever I hear Caroussele with Madonnas by Ewa Demarczyk, I get shivers:

[tufta]

I agree!

This song was covered by Czech singer Hana Hegerová, not as good but interesting

[Bonobo]

Oct 5, 2010 8:30:49 GMT 1 tufta said:

I agree!
This song was covered by Czech singer Hana Hegerová, not as good but interesting

Many tried but none got close to the original.

[pjotr]

I generally don't like Dutch music or songs, because I consider Dutch not such a wonderful language for music. But this song of Herman van Veen is an exception. This translation of Jacques Brel goes very deep. It's about the conditione humaine, humanity, lack of humanity, grief, sadness and the impossibility or lack of skills of people to coap with eachother humainly.

[pjotr]

Another Dutch example is this song "over de muur" of the Dutch band Klein orkest - (Little orchestra - Over the Wall)

It was a single of them which was released in june 1984 and it reached number 10 in the Dutch top 40. I think it should have been number 1.



Translation: "over de muur"

Over the Wall

East-Berlin, Unter den Linden
Some People walk along flags and standards
Lenin and Marx stil have their statue there
And everybody works, Hammers and sickles
While in goose-step the Guards are Changed
40 years socialism, a lot has been achieved in that time

But what's that ideal state
when it's surrounded by walls?
If you must handle your opinion fearfully and carefully
But what's that ideal state
Tell me what is it worth
Being labeled crazy if you are differant

And only the birds fly from East- to West-Berlin
Aren't called back, nor get they shot
Over the wall, over the Iron Curtain
Because they sometimes in the West, sometimes also want to be in the East
Because they sometimes in the West, sometimes also want to be in the East

West-Berlin, the Kurfuerstendamm
People walk along porno- en peepshow
Mercedes and Cola stil have their statue there
And the neonadds who tease wit their glitter
Come dance, come eat, come drinking, come gambling
That's 40 years of freedom
a lot has been achieved in that time

But what is this freedom presently without a house, without a job
That many Turks in Kreuzberg who can hardly exist
Well! You are allowed to demonstrate, but with your back against the wall
And only with money the freedom is affordable

And the birds fly from West- to East-Berlin
Aren't called back, nor get they shot
Over the wall, over the Iron Curtain
Because they sometimes in the East, sometimes also want to be in the West
Because there is lying bread at the Gedaechtniskirche, sometimes at the
Alexandersquare...

[pjotr]

[tufta]

Oct 19, 2010 23:08:04 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Another Dutch example is this song "over de muur" of the Dutch band Klein orkest - (Little orchestra - Over the Wall)

It was a single of them which was released in june 1984 and it reached number 10 in the Dutch top 40. I think it should have been number 1.

I must say that Dutch song is quite understandable!
... if you provide a nice translation, Pjeter

Thank you, this song indeed has that something. As you know I have been in Berlin this summer. A peculiar feeeling, trace of this feeling of divide is still there.
This song is of course in good faith and by idealists, artists, who were all heart against the dividide, occupation, crazy and absurd boundaries. And back in 80ties every sign of solidarity from the West we observed was strenghtening the bonds and making us feel better. But we also felt very very bitter knowing that the West in fact supports the status quo, the captivity of Central and Eastern Europe, of a world divide between US and USSR.

[pjotr]

Oct 20, 2010 7:43:37 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 19, 2010 23:08:04 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Another Dutch example is this song "over de muur" of the Dutch band Klein orkest - (Little orchestra - Over the Wall)

It was a single of them which was released in june 1984 and it reached number 10 in the Dutch top 40. I think it should have been number 1.

I must say that Dutch song is quite understandable!
... if you provide a nice translation, Pjeter

Thank you, this song indeed has that something. As you know I have been in Berlin this summer. A peculiar feeeling, trace of this feeling of divide is still there.
This song is of course in good faith and by idealists, artists, who were all heart against the dividide, occupation, crazy and absurd boundaries. And back in 80ties every sign of solidarity from the West we observed was strenghtening the bonds and making us feel better. But we also felt very very bitter knowing that the West in fact supports the status quo, the captivity of Central and Eastern Europe, of a world divide between US and USSR.

Tufta,

It is very hard for someone who isn't a poet or a musician to translate such a song, I hope that with my limited means I could present the content of the song, which is critical towards both the East and the West. West Berlin was in a recession time, with unemployment, social unrest, the Atmosphere of heroine drugs (Christiane F), squating and being captured in a limited space (surrounded by the DDR). But ofcourse in my view West-Berlin was a 1000 times better than East-Berlin with it's lack of freedom, opression and grim atmosphere. The song of Klein orkest captures that feeling very well. And I did understood that atmosphere, because I had been there as a child and teenager. Crossing the boarders from West to East Berlin by train or car. I had not been in East-Berlin, but went through it so I could get a glimps of it. But I remember the strange Island atmosphere of West-Berlin and the Wall which separated the city. We had a permit (Visa) for Poland only, not for East-Berlin or East-Germany, so we could only drive through it, not stop in villages, towns or cities we might like to visit.

[tufta]

Pjeter, the difference between West and East Berlin was equal to the difference between free capitalism and real communism. This difference is best described by a parallel to a wooden chair - the former is just a chair, uncomfortable wooden chair, the latter is... electric chair.

[pjotr]

Tufta,

Yes, ofcourse if I had the choice to live in West- or East-Berlin my preference is clear, West-Berlin.
Berlin is interesting due to it's ambivalence, it's Western and Eastern sides which merged, but kept
their atmospheres and transformed into something new in the same time.

Now it will take time to get united, and the charm of the city are its slav, oriental, French and
world influences which merges with the typical North German mentality of the Berliners.
Berlin is unlike any other German city and in fact unlike any other European city.

It is an anarchistic, libertarian city and in the same time the capital of Germany.

Pieter

[pjotr]

The song ‘Over de Muur’, translated in English as ‘Over the Wall’, tells of the sharp contrasts in 1980’s Berlin, of Western influences in the western part of the city and communist/Russian influences in the eastern part. The main lyric translates to “Only the birds fly from West to East Berlin, they won’t be shot down or called back”, implicitly criticizing the ridiculous situation of one city’s residents being so completely separated by military force.

[pjotr]

Where did you go to in Berlin, which parts Tufta?

[pjotr]

I like this song very much. It is one of my favfority songs of a female singer.



I think this is a deeply religious song, and it is about Jesus or God.

[tufta]

It was the first visit there for some of my children, so it was to give them an overview - Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, TV tower, museums district, Reichstag, Sprewa bank behind it, Brandenburg Gate, Under the Lime-trees avenue. I know Berlin is one of your favourite cities, Pieter. And you often call it 'anarchistic'. I always wanted to ask - why?

[pjotr]

Oct 21, 2010 15:01:28 GMT 1 tufta said:

It was the first visit there for some of my children, so it was to give them an overview - Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, TV tower, museums district, Reichstag, Sprewa bank behind it, Brandenburg Gate, Under the Lime-trees avenue. I know Berlin is one of your favourite cities, Pieter. And you often call it 'anarchistic'. I always wanted to ask - why?

Tufta,

Due to the Autonomous zones or blocks in the city, it's pluriformity, not only between West- and East, but also between North and South. The pluriformity in West-Berlin and the Multi-cultural, creative alternative (Independant? in the sense of Indie) leftist atmosphere. I don't know if you saw the squating area's in Kreuzberg or Berlin Mitte, because then you would know what I mean. No other European capital has that. Not even Amsterdam, which became more conservative and is closing down squater builings and area's.

Berlin ofcourse is also the capital of Germany, with Capitalist financial districts, more conservative Bourgeois neighbourhoods, conservative middle class neighbourhoods and large Labour (SPD) and Marxist (Die Linke, former PDS and East-German SED communist party following) neighbourhoods. Berlin is a city as any other European capital, but with a differant history. Warsaw and Amsterdam are differant cities. Warsaw looked more modern and sophisticated to me than Berlin, because Berlin is a poor and to some extend shabby and empty city. There are large open spaces there and a lot of green area's.

www.indymedia.ie/attachments/aug2009/berlin_interview_with_shane.mp3



Pieter

[pjotr]

KØPI 137 - Autonomen Living and Culture centre in Berlin


The Köpi in Berlin's Mitte district is a symbol of the city's far-left scene.

[tufta]

Oct 21, 2010 16:48:51 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Oct 21, 2010 15:01:28 GMT 1 tufta said:

It was the first visit there for some of my children, so it was to give them an overview - Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, TV tower, museums district, Reichstag, Sprewa bank behind it, Brandenburg Gate, Under the Lime-trees avenue. I know Berlin is one of your favourite cities, Pieter. And you often call it 'anarchistic'. I always wanted to ask - why?

Tufta,

Due to the Autonomous zones or blocks in the city, it's pluriformity, not only between West- and East, but also between North and South. The pluriformity in West-Berlin and the Multi-cultural, creative alternative (Independant? in the sense of Indie) leftist atmosphere. I don't know if you saw the squating area's in Kreuzberg or Berlin Mitte, because then you would know what I mean. No other European capital has that. Not even Amsterdam, which became more conservative and is closing down squater builings and area's.

Berlin ofcourse is also the capital of Germany, with Capitalist financial districts, more conservative Bourgeois neighbourhoods, conservative middle class neighbourhoods and large Labour (SPD) and Marxist (Die Linke, former PDS and East-German SED communist party following) neighbourhoods. Berlin is a city as any other European capital, but with a differant history. Warsaw and Amsterdam are differant cities. Warsaw looked more modern and sophisticated to me than Berlin, because Berlin is a poor and to some extend shabby and empty city. There are large open spaces there and a lot of green area's.

I have got your idea now Pieter. Yes I have showed the children the shabby areas of Kreuzberg. Berlin is indeed extremely indebted.

[pjotr]

BERLIN - THE ANARCHY ORGANIZATION



I keep dreaming about the day when Finn, the next-generation socialist among my grandchildren, is going to climb up on my lap and ask me, "Why doesn't anarchy work?" With a generous, omniscient gesture I’ll re-adjust the glasses on the bridge of my nose and clip him round the ear before mercilessly popping his cute, little red bubble...

I actually have this fantasy on a regular basis, basically every time one of the punks squatting in this house on my street calls me "Bitch" because I ask him to stop mistreating his dog, or when one of them asks me for a little donation for their "Volxküche" (German socialist cooking collective). With 34 Antifa-divisions, plus multiple socialist, communist, feminist and other groups, Berlin definitely lives up to its capital status in terms of kooky left wing organizations. More so than in any other German city there’s left-wing extremist activities happening nonstop and you find punks, squats, and the scarlet letter of anarchy allover the place. (Our office in Berlin has a literal gallery of "As" on adjacent buildings' walls.)

Recently I stumbled on the Agenda to “Akongress”--an anarchist’s congress that looked forward to gathering around 500 anarchists in Berlin last weekend. This story claimed the anarchists are encouraging violence and wouldn’t exactly mind setting cars on fire, so the dean of the Technological University decided to ban the congress on university property. So the anarchists had to switch to a bunch of scattered locations, starting off with the first meeting point in Kreuzberg at New Yorck in order to go through with their agenda.

In their jazzy little pamphlet they don’t just talk about organized anarchy. No, they step it up and also introduce concepts such as “structures born from anarchy,” “models of a federation," and "unions.” They have organizer groups, info points, awareness groups and "people you trust," which are the ones you should call up in case you get arrested or witness others being arrested.

Just in case you got lost now, the congress is organized in a "methodically anarchistic" way. Racism and sexism is strictly condemned and should be directly addressed if witnessed. At least this should be fairly easy considering, they divide people into convenient little plena. There's a women’s plenum, a men’s plenum, a children’s plenum, a queer people’s plenum and even one for transgender people.

To gather ammunition for the disillusionment of my future grandchild I called up this guy Christopher before all their meetings, who turned out to be the person who purchased the Sim-Card for the “congress phone” and who seems to be so excited about someone calling him, that he didn’t even bother asking why the hell I wanted to know all these things from him.

Vice: Hi, I have a couple of questions regarding the Akongress.
Christoph: Sure, what do you want to know?

OK, so you guys are anarchists, right? You don’t believe in rules and stuff, but then your pamphlet is like one big collection of agenda items and timetables. What’s up with that?
Imagine people would arrive at the main train station and then no one knows where to go to, how to get there and what’s going on. You have to organize anarchy too.

Mmh, I imagined the anarchy-thing to be more exciting and revolutionary somehow. And one thing is still confusing me. On the one hand you’re all fighting racism and sexism and then you divide people into these different plena. What’s that crap all about?
Well, we had a major discussion about this, but something we experienced at the “Libertarian Days” in 1993 made us decide on this division.

The Libertarian Days in 1993? What happened back then? Did someone wear the wrong shoes?
Some drunken guys assaulted a girl and that triggered some people beating the crap out

of each other. That sounds terrible...and a lot more like my idea of anarchy.
Women don’t like having guys watching them and they should have a space they can retreat to, especially for sleeping.

Trust is good, but nothing beats control, even with you anarchist guys, huh?
Everything that happens in society can happen at an anarchist meeting as well.

Ah, so society’s got all of you under control.

BARBARA DABROWSKA

[tufta]

Oct 21, 2010 17:10:16 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Ah, so society’s got all of you under control.

Thanks for posting Pieter. My idea now is that this anarchy feeling is partly beacause of relativity. Compared to most of Germany, perhaps parts of Berlin have that air of 'anarchy', as long as we don't understand the word literally To tell the truth the feeling is much stronger in regions of Amsterdam/ But of course I can't really say that as I know Berlin not that well, and I am not very fond of it, while I am fond of Amsterdam.

[pjotr]

In Gentrifying Berlin, Revenge of the Anarchists
By Tristana Moore / Berlin Friday, Apr. 02, 2010


A police investigator checks a burned-out car in Hamburg, one of six set ablaze on March 15 DPA / Zumapress

When Sven left his Berlin apartment one cold December morning to go to work, he got a nasty surprise: his gleaming white Audi was nowhere to be found. Sven, who declined to give his last name, looked up and down his leafy street in the trendy Prenzlauer Berg district, but it had vanished. Just then, a neighbor shouted from her balcony that she'd seen the car ablaze in the middle of the night. Burned beyond recognition, the car was removed by the fire brigade after neighbors alerted police.

Sven's Audi was the latest victim in a spate of car burnings in the German capital. Police have blamed the vandalism on far-left militants who are waging an increasingly violent campaign against the wealthy Germans they see as being the cause of the recent gentrification of Berlin. According to police, the number of cars set on fire in the city reached a record high of 270 in 2009. The Interior Ministry released figures last month showing that crimes committed by left-wing extremists jumped almost 40% last year — and violent offenses were up 53%. "These far-left militants are becoming more dangerous," says Rainer Wendt, head of Germany's police union. "They're terrorizing neighborhoods by burning cars or assaulting policemen." (See pictures of the dangers of printing money in Germany.)

Intelligence agencies estimate that there are some 6,300 extreme left-wing militants in the country who are bent on violence. Although they've been dubbed "far-left radicals" by police, experts say they have little in common with the leftist student protesters who agitated against the government in the 1960s, apart from their commitment to violence and their targets — symbols of capitalism. "Back in the late 1960s and early '70s, the protesters had a distinct left-wing ideology. The majority were Marxists who dreamed of revolution, and they wanted change," Christian Pfeiffer, the head of the Hanover-based Lower Saxony Institute of Criminology, tells TIME. Today's far-left radicals are a motley bunch of anarchists, antiglobalization activists, peace campaigners, antinuclear protesters and disillusioned youths who defy easy categorization. "They have no clear political aims, and they don't adhere to any particular left-wing ideology," says Pfeiffer. "They feel they haven't achieved their goals. They're very disappointed and angry, and they have nothing to lose."

Experts say the protesters see themselves as locked in a losing Manichaean struggle with authoritative symbols of the state, like police officers, as well as the rich, whose luxury BMW, Porsche and Audi cars represent a blatant affront to disillusioned Germans. Major German cities like Berlin and Hamburg, which have undergone rapid social and political transformations in the past two decades, are perfect breeding grounds for this type of dissent. "These protesters have zeroed in on gentrified neighborhoods in large cities" where there's a widening gap between the rich and poor, says Michael Kohlstruck, a political scientist at Berlin's Technical University. (See pictures of the rise and fall of the Berlin Wall.)

Over the past few years, these groups have also become increasingly violent, venting their anger, for instance, at the 2007 G-8 summit in the German seaside resort of Heiligendamm and during the traditional workers' holiday of May Day. During last year's May Day demonstrations, scores of people chanting anticapitalist slogans threw bottles and stones at police and set cars and Dumpsters on fire in the capital. Nearly 50 police officers were injured in the chaos.

Police forces, already grappling with a recent spike in far-right neo-Nazi violence, are now struggling to cope with this growing wave of attacks from the left. Budget cuts aren't helping matters: Germany's 260,000-strong force is set to be reduced by 10,000 officers over the next five years. "We need more civilian officers patrolling the streets and tougher penalties for anyone who attacks a policeman," Wendt says. Until now, far-left attacks have generally been isolated incidents committed by anarchist groups lacking structure and organization. But officials fear this could change with time, and they'll be faced with more mayhem — and more burned cars — as coffee shops, boutique hotels and chic restaurants continue to pop up in Germany's newly hip capital.


Read more: www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1977084,00.html#ixzz130o6VezD

[tufta]

Oct 19, 2010 23:08:04 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Another Dutch example is this song "over de muur" of the Dutch band Klein orkest - (Little orchestra - Over the Wall)

It was a single of them which was released in june 1984 and it reached number 10 in the Dutch top 40. I think it should have been number 1.

Pjeter, when I first listened to this song two Polish songs came to my mind. They also use the 'free birds' parallel. One is unfoundable on the net - it is Jacek Kleyff's 'Słoiczek Tienanmen'. The other is below. "Pigeons of all the city squares, I am calling you'

il.youtube.com/watch?v=xTDvWF8Z03E

[tufta]

btw. in Polish 'the wall' is mur.

[pjotr]

Oct 21, 2010 17:52:15 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 19, 2010 23:08:04 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Another Dutch example is this song "over de muur" of the Dutch band Klein orkest - (Little orchestra - Over the Wall)

It was a single of them which was released in june 1984 and it reached number 10 in the Dutch top 40. I think it should have been number 1.

Pjeter, when I first listened to this song two Polish songs came to my mind. They also use the 'free birds' parallel. One is unfoundable on the net - it is Jacek Kleyff's 'Słoiczek Tienanmen'. The other is below. "Pigeons of all the city squares, I am calling you'

il.youtube.com/watch?v=xTDvWF8Z03E

Tufta,

Nice song! Polish sounds better than Dutch but I like the song of Klein orkest, due to it's strong message in Dutch and it's criticizm of East-German communism and the Sovjet system in general. Mind you that in that time the Sovjet and Central- and Eastern-European regimes propaganda machines were strong and attracting the European intelligentsia and students for propaganda trips to their Peoples republics, in which the 'foreign guests' were treated like kings and saw a very colored beautiful image of the 'socialist paradise or Utopia', which was shown to them by agents of the regimes. They often were shown the best or manipulated parts of these communist countries. In that way many people though that the Communist system wasn't bad, was good for the workers and humanistic in nature.
Ofcourse my family wasn't made of comrades, communist workers, and in fact in the sense of class strugle a terrible bourgeois family of a banker, his wife and kids (me). We saw the other side of East-Germany and Poland the 'official Western European comrades' did not see.

The East-Germans and Sovjets were very nervous or afraid for these Western visitors, because these 'critical left-intellectuals' might find out the truth about their countries. And some of them did and did damage to the 'Communist propaganda machines image of the Socialist workers paradise'. Some Western-European communist or Marxists came to their senses after 1956, 1968 or after they found out the reality behind the Iron curtain. Some left the 'party', others were brainwashed and indoctrinated by the 'party's' doctrine of 'total loyalty to Moscow', censorship and internal party intreges, psychological terror and orthodox dogmatism. I am talking about the Dutch Communist party. Other leftists by the way were blinded by the Sovjet, East-German or Albanian propaganda too. Former GreenLeft party leader Paul Rosenmöller went to Enver Hoxa's Albania, which was a terrible Stalinist-Maoist dictatorship. He admid that he had been seduced by the exellent propaganda machine of the Albanian communists. The Sovjets were the best in that. They had special prepared fake area's with model farms, people and prosperity for foreign visitors.

Pieter

[tufta]

Oct 21, 2010 19:45:47 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Oct 21, 2010 17:52:15 GMT 1 tufta said:

Pjeter, when I first listened to this song two Polish songs came to my mind. They also use the 'free birds' parallel. One is unfoundable on the net - it is Jacek Kleyff's 'Słoiczek Tienanmen'. The other is below. "Pigeons of all the city squares, I am calling you'

il.youtube.com/watch?v=xTDvWF8Z03E

Tufta,

Nice song! Polish sounds better than Dutch but I like the song of Klein orkest, due to it's strong message in Dutch and it's criticizm of East-German communism and the Sovjet system in general. Mind you that in that time the Sovjet and Central- and Eastern-European regimes propaganda machines were strong and attracting the European intelligentsia and students for propaganda trips to their Peoples republics, in which the 'foreign guests' were treated like kings and saw a very colored beautiful image of the 'socialist paradise or Utopia', which was shown to them by agents of the regimes. They often were shown the best or manipulated parts of these communist countries. In that way many people though that the Communist system wasn't bad, was good for the workers and humanistic in nature.
Ofcourse my family wasn't made of comrades, communist workers, and in fact in the sense of class strugle a terrible bourgeois family of a banker, his wife and kids (me). We saw the other side of East-Germany and Poland the 'official Western European comrades' did not see.

The East-Germans and Sovjets were very nervous or afraid for these Western visitors, because these 'critical left-intellectuals' might find out the truth about their countries. And some of them did and did damage to the 'Communist propaganda machines image of the Socialist workers paradise'. Some Western-European communist or Marxists came to their senses after 1956, 1968 or after they found out the reality behind the Iron curtain. Some left the 'party', others were brainwashed and indoctrinated by the 'party's' doctrine of 'total loyalty to Moscow', censorship and internal party intreges, psychological terror and orthodox dogmatism. I am talking about the Dutch Communist party. Other leftists by the way were blinded by the Sovjet, East-German or Albanian propaganda too. Former GreenLeft party leader Paul Rosenmöller went to Enver Hoxa's Albania, which was a terrible Stalinist-Maoist dictatorship. He admid that he had been seduced by the exellent propaganda machine of the Albanian communists. The Sovjets were the best in that. They had special prepared fake area's with model farms, people and prosperity for foreign visitors.

Pieter

Pieter, the leftist intellectuals who visited the 'communist word' were in their vast majority aware that what they are shown is just a propaganda show. They didn't see the true life so they were unaware how poor and infiltrated by the secret police was the Soviet Union and other 'people's democracies'. I mean they were only aware of that just as anyone in West. But they knew very well that what they see is not true. Part of them were of the opinion that the hardship of people is the necessery step before achieving true communism. They were mentally blind, and sorry to say that - most of the Western leftis intellectuals are mentally blind even today.

I liked the Klein Orchestr song very much. Yes I needed several listening to appreciate it fully, get used to the language and the like. But the song is really good. The song by Krajewski I posted is in my opinion oversweet.

[pjotr]

Oct 23, 2010 13:54:48 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 21, 2010 19:45:47 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Pieter, the leftist intellectuals who visited the 'communist world' were in their vast majority aware that what they are shown is just a propaganda show. They didn't see the true life so they were unaware how poor and infiltrated by the secret police was the Soviet Union and other 'people's democracies'. I mean they were only aware of that just as anyone in West. But they knew very well that what they see is not true. Part of them were of the opinion that the hardship of people is the necessery step before achieving true communism. They were mentally blind, and sorry to say that - most of the Western leftis intellectuals are mentally blind even today.

Tufta,

You are so right here, you described what I have witnessed in Amsterdam, Arnhem, my parents place in Zeeland (the Vlissingen and Middelburg towns).
Leftists teachers, pupils, students, activists and etc. Even when I told my background and my Polish experiance, they in their leftist superiority and their own sentimental experiances in socialist paradises like the DDR, Cuba or Russia (the SovjetUnion) knew it better. I was 'lucky' to live near the Communist headquarters in Amsterdam, before it was closed in 1991 or something like that. I had one Communist teacher in my first high school, a militant socialist (Labour leftwing) in my primary school, and ofcourse knew many leftist activists, militants and people of various leftist parties in Amsterdam and Arnhem. Some of them are naieve, dumb, brainwashed, indoctrinated people, by their leftist upbringing (Red families, grandparents, parents, children, grandchildren and etc.), leftist school teachers or the movements or parties they were and are active in. I know leftist people who are 'fundamentalists', 'orthodox' or 'conservative' in their black and white thinking. It is an easy world view. Left is right and Righting is wrong. Socialist or leftist professions like 'worker', 'teacher', 'nurse', 'youth coach', 'civil servant', 'artist', 'musician', 'development aid worker', workinig for a university or the leftwing press or media or being a 'social' lawjer, "social worker", 'party activist or militant of a leftwing party' or someone with a small non-commercial shop. Left was honest and working hard and doing 'good' work. Considered Rightwing and bad was being an entrepreneur, businessman, having bourgeois professions like being a banker, real estate agent, having a middle class mentality and etc. Rightwing or capitalist was exploitation of the working class (the people who really worked), being profiteers, corrupt and small minded.

Boring opinions and cliché's ofcourse. It was a mindset of the left 'socialist' pillar of Socialists and Communists.

Pieter

[pjotr]

Oct 23, 2010 13:54:48 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 21, 2010 19:45:47 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Tufta,

Nice song! Polish sounds better than Dutch but I like the song of Klein orkest, due to it's strong message in Dutch and it's criticizm of East-German communism and the Sovjet system in general. Mind you that in that time the Sovjet and Central- and Eastern-European regimes propaganda machines were strong and attracting the European intelligentsia and students for propaganda trips to their Peoples republics, in which the 'foreign guests' were treated like kings and saw a very colored beautiful image of the 'socialist paradise or Utopia', which was shown to them by agents of the regimes. They often were shown the best or manipulated parts of these communist countries. In that way many people though that the Communist system wasn't bad, was good for the workers and humanistic in nature.
Ofcourse my family wasn't made of comrades, communist workers, and in fact in the sense of class strugle a terrible bourgeois family of a banker, his wife and kids (me). We saw the other side of East-Germany and Poland the 'official Western European comrades' did not see.

The East-Germans and Sovjets were very nervous or afraid for these Western visitors, because these 'critical left-intellectuals' might find out the truth about their countries. And some of them did and did damage to the 'Communist propaganda machines image of the Socialist workers paradise'. Some Western-European communist or Marxists came to their senses after 1956, 1968 or after they found out the reality behind the Iron curtain. Some left the 'party', others were brainwashed and indoctrinated by the 'party's' doctrine of 'total loyalty to Moscow', censorship and internal party intreges, psychological terror and orthodox dogmatism. I am talking about the Dutch Communist party. Other leftists by the way were blinded by the Sovjet, East-German or Albanian propaganda too. Former GreenLeft party leader Paul Rosenmöller went to Enver Hoxa's Albania, which was a terrible Stalinist-Maoist dictatorship. He admid that he had been seduced by the exellent propaganda machine of the Albanian communists. The Sovjets were the best in that. They had special prepared fake area's with model farms, people and prosperity for foreign visitors.

Pieter

Pieter, the leftist intellectuals who visited the 'communist world' were in their vast majority aware that what they are shown is just a propaganda show.

Tufta,

Exactly there were quite rotten personalities amongst them in the psychological and social sense. Not nice people you would like to become acquainted to or to join their club for it's cosyness. I wonder what was the attractiveness of the Communist and socialist (social-democratic) parties. Did you become a member of a youth organisation, because you were born in a working class family in a working class neighbourhood in the socialist pillar? I don't know it and can't know it, because I was born and raised in a rightwing or centre-right bourgeois family in the Marxist-leninist theory of class struggle. How come that in the Netherlands, Poland and the Netherlands people of the aristocratic nobility and bourgeois classes were attracted to socialism and Communism? Wojciech Witold Jaruzelski, Józef Piłsudski and Felix Dzerzhinsky. My political development was from rightwing towards the moderate left. Being raised Dutch and Polish Patriotic by a Dutch father and Polish mother, with scepticism towards Germany, Russian, Japan and Austria in my genes (upbringing and self) education. I had the luck to be able to experiance the Netherlands, Belgium, West- and East Germany (DDR) and Poland as a child and teenager. Being able to watch, observe and analyse two systems made me more aware of the situation than compatriots who did not visited or witnessed the peoples republics in the East. We talk here about the Communists, socialists and leftwing-intellectuals who did visit the SovjetUnion. But a lot of these leftwing people who knew it better than me or people who lived in one of these Peoples republics never had visited the real communist countries. They only knew the theory, their party or movement and their moral rightiousness, that they were the good ones. Yes, these people were blind, grey, boring, and one sided, misinformed and intolerant (towards people with a liberal, moderate democratic, christian-democratic or conservative view).

And yet, you had examples of good, brave and honest left intellectuals who presented a middle road between the existing evil of Communism and Capitalist Liberal democracy. These people turned their back at the Communist party, supported central- and Eastern European dissidents. These people were more interested in KOR, Solidarnosc and Charta 77 than in the Polska Zjednoczona Partia Robotnicza (PZPR) and the CCCP of the USSR.

Pieter

[pjotr]

Oct 23, 2010 13:54:48 GMT 1 tufta said:

Oct 21, 2010 19:45:47 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Tufta,

Nice song! Polish sounds better than Dutch but I like the song of Klein orkest, due to it's strong message in Dutch and it's criticizm of East-German communism and the Sovjet system in general. Mind you that in that time the Sovjet and Central- and Eastern-European regimes propaganda machines were strong and attracting the European intelligentsia and students for propaganda trips to their Peoples republics, in which the 'foreign guests' were treated like kings and saw a very colored beautiful image of the 'socialist paradise or Utopia', which was shown to them by agents of the regimes. They often were shown the best or manipulated parts of these communist countries. In that way many people though that the Communist system wasn't bad, was good for the workers and humanistic in nature.
Ofcourse my family wasn't made of comrades, communist workers, and in fact in the sense of class strugle a terrible bourgeois family of a banker, his wife and kids (me). We saw the other side of East-Germany and Poland the 'official Western European comrades' did not see.

The East-Germans and Sovjets were very nervous or afraid for these Western visitors, because these 'critical left-intellectuals' might find out the truth about their countries. And some of them did and did damage to the 'Communist propaganda machines image of the Socialist workers paradise'. Some Western-European communist or Marxists came to their senses after 1956, 1968 or after they found out the reality behind the Iron curtain. Some left the 'party', others were brainwashed and indoctrinated by the 'party's' doctrine of 'total loyalty to Moscow', censorship and internal party intreges, psychological terror and orthodox dogmatism. I am talking about the Dutch Communist party. Other leftists by the way were blinded by the Sovjet, East-German or Albanian propaganda too. Former GreenLeft party leader Paul Rosenmöller went to Enver Hoxa's Albania, which was a terrible Stalinist-Maoist dictatorship. He admid that he had been seduced by the exellent propaganda machine of the Albanian communists. The Sovjets were the best in that. They had special prepared fake area's with model farms, people and prosperity for foreign visitors.

Pieter

Part of them were of the opinion that the hardship of people is the necessery step before achieving true communism.

Yes, I witnessed that kind of opinion too. Scary people. I heard one of them saying; "You don't understand Communism [you =Pieter] it is about the idea, about the moral and ethical correctness of the communist system which is perfect and capitalism is wrong." "You are sentimental about some people who have it difficult, about a period in a process of transformation. This suffering is necassery in the process of change, it is the result of class struggle, and the bourgeois class has it difficult." "The workers don't understand that this change is necassery to improve their situation, and they are under the influence of rectionairy bourgeous counter revolutionairy activity and obstruction". "Communism is the best system for human mankind, certainly better than the illogical and selfish Capitalism, which lacks foundation and structure and equality". I can go on and on! It was like talking with a Jehova Witness or a Fundamentalist Muslim. They are right and you are wrong and you can't change their opinion or even have a conversation. I stopped discussing with these people and after Amsterdam I did not have contacts or connections with the far left. (I only went to anarchist squats, because they had good art parties there and "Indie" lifestiles ;D).

I was lucky to have the possibibility to use a Marxist activist and Lenin lookalike to teach me Marxism-Leninism in Amsterdam, during a series of conversations. He was part of the minority movement "Marxists within Labour", and he and his comrades always stood at the gates of leftwing party gatherings of the PvdA (Labour), Socialist party (SP) (a Maoist party back then) and Greenleft (in which the Communist party merged with other leftwing parties). Next to that I knew people of the Troskkyist SAP (Socialist workers party). I was more attracted to Anarchism and Libertarian ideas then Marxism, Trotskist and socialist ideas. I did not understand the logical and the so called Utopic ideas behind Marixism and socialism. I was already to sceptical and had read and studied to much left and rightwing opinions which were differant than Marxism.

Liberalism, Western-social democracy (anti-communist socialists), democrats (D66), conservatism, Zionism, Catholicism and Calvinism were more logical to me than Marixism or Communism which were vague and dangerous ideas to me, due to the bloody red terror of the French revolution, the terror of the Russian october revolution and the Russian civil war (1918-1921), the Sovjet-Polish war (1920), the forced Stalinist collectivisation (introduction of the Sovchoz and Kolchoz system), Holodomor in Ukrain from 1932–1933, the Great Purge in the Soviet in 1936–1938, the terror during the Sovjet occupation of Eastern-Poland between 1939 and 1941, the Sovjet backed Stalinist terror in Poland of 1945 until the fiftees, and the Polish communist regime of 1953 until 1989.

I know about the broken carreers of my Polish family members of the prison years of Polish uncles (their crime was trade in metals and grain in the fourtees), humiliation of civilized, good and sophisticated people, because they weren't proletarian enough. And next to that the persecution and opression of workers and polish middle class, because they were Polish Catholic Partriots. Simply because they weren't PZPR members or protested against bad living conditions.

Those leftists did not want to hear such stories, or did not understand it or were blind for such stories. Some of them came with the myth of the reactionairy anti-semitic Nationalistic Poles and Hungarians.

Towarzysz Tufta, I am going to stop my writing and enjoy my saturday evening with a good English 'bourgeois' detective on the Dutch reactionairy broadcast corporation. ;D

Cheers

[tufta]

Oct 23, 2010 20:49:41 GMT 1 pjotr said:

I had one Communist teacher in my first high school, a militant socialist (Labour leftwing) in my primary school,

You were very lucky, compared to this side of the curtain, Pieter ;D ;D ;D ;D

[tufta]

Oct 23, 2010 21:38:55 GMT 1 pjotr said:

there were quite rotten personalities amongst them in the psychological and social sense.

Yes perhaps in some sense rotten. On the other hand the most succesful communist activistst in Poland were as a rule people very symapthetic socially, nice and witty. And able to consume large quantities alcohol! That was part of their success in the party ladder.