|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 18, 2015 16:33:52 GMT 1
The ruling party PO has lower position in polls than the opposition PiS who are said to be the winner on 25 October. But will they be able to rule on their own? That is the question. Other parties abstain from cooperating with PiS.  |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 18, 2015 21:50:18 GMT 1
By the way how powerful is the Zjednoczona Lewica (United Left), the coalition of SLD+TR+PPS+UP+Zieloni today? Well, after forming this coalition, leftist parties may collect even 10%. Not bad, leftism hasn`t been very popular in Poland recently.  |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 18, 2015 22:43:41 GMT 1
Two women are battling for Polish hearts. On the left - current Prime Minister from the ruling party. On the left - prospective Prime Minister from PiS opposition.  |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 18, 2015 22:54:32 GMT 1
By the way how powerful is the Zjednoczona Lewica (United Left), the coalition of SLD+TR+PPS+UP+Zieloni today? Well, after forming this coalition, leftist parties may collect even 10%. Not bad, leftism hasn`t been very popular in Poland recently. Dear Bonobo, I noticed that following your correspondences with Tufta on this Forum and asking questions to Aadam and Bunjo ( Woijtek) on the old forum (Jaga's Forum). But that the situation would be so unbalanced and bad for the left I didn't realize. So the competition in Poland today is between the moderate center right ( PO) and the rightwing nationalist and conservative right ( PiS)? Isn't it worrysome that there isn't something like a reasonable, democratic center left without communist roots, like Centrolew in Pre-war Poland?  Centrolew rally in Warsaw, 15 September 1930I understand or understood that the SLD of the nineties and early this century was stil filled with the wrong kind of people of the old communist party, PZPR ( Polska Zjednoczona Partia Robotnicza). But today there is a new generation and the SLD is a modern Polish political party, who puts Polish interests first, has good connections with the European center left (The Party of European Socialists, PES) and embraces the free market, Europe, the EU, democracy, freedom and Polish Patriotism (as opposed to Polish nationalism of the Endecja type)  The headquarters of the SLD party in Warsaw from 1999–2012, in Rozbrat street. I walked past it several times during my holiday in Warsaw in August 2006I understand the decline after the Rywin-gate scandal in 2004. But surely the party must have been reformed. New leaders of the left like Barbara Anna Nowacka (ur. 10 maja 1975 w Warszawie), the beautiful Magdalena Agnieszka Ogórek (born February 23, 1979), Grzegorz Bernard Napieralski (March 18, 1974 in Szczecin), Wojciech Michał Olejniczak (born 10 April 1974) and Janusz Marian Palikot (26 October 1964 in Biłgoraj) could create, transform and legitimise leftwing politics in Poland. Am I right or am I wrong? Maybe rightwing politics dominates Poland, because Poland is a rightwing conservative and rather traditional country like you stated several times Bo? Cheers, Pieter |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 18, 2015 23:07:11 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo,
The SLD is very week for a Social Democratic Labour party in an European country. In most European countries you have a competition between two big parties, a large center right christian-democratic/Conservative party on one side and a large Social-democratic Labour party on the other side. Next to that we had and have smaller center left and center right parties and centrist parties. In England the Tories and Labour are a good example for that. The Polish SLD in my opinion is what Labour is for Britain, the SPD for Germany, the Parti Socialiste for France and the PvdA (the Dutch Labour party) for the Netherlands. But the election result for the SLD is dramatic, 11% is very low.
What party do the Polish workers, miners, unionists, little farmers and agricultural workers and lower middle classes vote for? In my opinion in European history workers always voted for Social-democratic, socialist or Marxists parties. It seems that the Polish workers vote for rightwing parties. Do they vote against their own interests? The PSL and Twój! Ruch have also very few votes with 9 and 2 percent.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 19, 2015 22:26:37 GMT 1
1 So the competition in Poland today is between the moderate center right ( PO) and the rightwing nationalist and conservative right ( PiS)? 2 New leaders of the left like Barbara Anna Nowacka (ur. 10 maja 1975 w Warszawie), the beautiful Magdalena Agnieszka Ogórek (born February 23, 1979), Grzegorz Bernard Napieralski (March 18, 1974 in Szczecin), Wojciech Michał Olejniczak (born 10 April 1974) and Janusz Marian Palikot (26 October 1964 in Biłgoraj) could create, transform and legitimise leftwing politics in Poland. Am I right or am I wrong? 3 Maybe rightwing politics dominates Poland, because Poland is a rightwing conservative and rather traditional country like you stated several times Bo? 4 But the election result for the SLD is dramatic, 11% is very low. 5 What party do the Polish workers, miners, unionists, little farmers and agricultural workers and lower middle classes vote for? 1 Yes, exactly. Two right wing parties dominate. 2 It is highly improbable. 3 Most probably 4 Leftists lost a lot of support after their rule during which they hadn`t relied on their left idea(l)s too often. E.g., I still remember how their finance minister introduced a new tax on bank deposits. Many people considered it unfair. Besides, SLD is still run by former communists, e.g., Miller. 5 Main parties. |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 20, 2015 9:56:13 GMT 1
Do you believe Bonobo, that the fact that these two rightwing parties dominate, is good for the polish democracy, the Polish economy, the Polish financial situation, the Polish society and thus the Polish people?
What is the main difference between the two parties? Was or is a grand coalition of PO-PiS possible? I remember that Tufta was in favor of such a coalition government, and was slightly disappointed that such a coalition government wasn't implemented or created.
Is it highly improbable, because underneath the surface the old nomenklatura, "the old vanguard of the people" (I am speaking in an ironical tone here), old politburo members of the PZPR and thus the same old Moscow puppets are in charge in the SLD. Or did as you said the neo-liberal tough market orientation of the previous SLD-PSL governments blocked the succes of the SLD or the United Left (Zjednoczona Lewica). Maybe Social-democracy doesn't work in Poland. And new Polish generations have no clue what the pre-war Polska Partia Socjalistyczna (PPS) meant. A leftwing Patriotic Polish Social Democratic Party without ties, links or solidarity with the communists. In Pre-War Poland the communists were electoral opponents and enemies of the Polish Social democrats (also called socialists).
Some Poles remember the Shocktherapy of the Balcerowicz Plan.
From September 1989 to August 1991 and also between October 31, 1997 and June 8, 2000 Leszek Balcerowicz (born January 19, 1947 in Lipno) held the positions of Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister of Poland.
The Balcerowicz Plan was a series of reforms, which sought to end hyperinflation and balance the national budget. The prices of most consumer goods were freed and caps for annual increases established in state-sector employees' wages. Poland's currency, the Złoty was made convertible within the country's borders. This resulted in a substantial increase in prices and had forced state-owned companies to become competitive. This amounted to a real shock to the Polish economy.
The reforms were controversial and made Balcerowicz an object of harsh criticism, especially in his homeland. On the other hand most economists agree that without introducing such radical changes, Poland's economic success and steady economic growth would not have been possible. Since 1989, Poland's annual growth rate was one of the highest of all post-Communist economies, and has not entered economic recession.
This Shock therapy or Shock doctrine like Naomi Klein called it in her her book with the same title probably turned the Polish population against their own rightwing or center right politicians. Maybe that is the reason why they voted for Aleksander Kwaśniewski's and Leszek Millers SLD?
I ask the question again. Is it improbable due to the exsistance and the power of the old guard of PZPR politicians or is it because the new young generation of SLD leaders aren't able to reform, transform and modernise the SLD and the Left Unity?
Maybe communism preserved old values, traditions, customs, ideas and feelings in the former socialist countries. The Roman-Catholic church has a strong cultural, educational, political, social and spiritual power in Poland. Priests have some influence over the believers. Is there a real separation between church and state in Poland or does the high clergy have political influence in parliament and the government, because nearly everybody is Roman-Catholic?
Good that you point that out, I didn't realise that Leszek Cezary Miller (born 3 July 1946) is the current leader of the Democratic Left Alliance (SLD). Why do they keep him in that position. Why doesn't the present Post-communist generation takes over the power of these old Communist Dinosaurs?
So the workers, miners and lower middle class, voted for PiS and PO? Where traditionally these people, these cathegories in Europe voted for the center-left social democrats, leftwing socialists or communists or the far right. Although PiS is Nationalist and in some cases ultra-conservative, I wouldn't call it far right in the Endecja sense. It must be tough for the PO to have PiS in the opposition, with also former members of PO in PiS.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 20, 2015 21:54:58 GMT 1
1 Do you believe Bonobo, that the fact that these two rightwing parties dominate, is good for the polish democracy, the Polish economy, the Polish financial situation, the Polish society and thus the Polish people? 2 What is the main difference between the two parties? 3 Was or is a grand coalition of PO-PiS possible? I remember that Tufta was in favor of such a coalition government, and was slightly disappointed that such a coalition government wasn't implemented or created. 4 Is it highly improbable, because underneath the surface the old nomenklatura, " the old vanguard of the people" ( I am speaking in an ironical tone here), old politburo members of the PZPR and thus the same old Moscow puppets are in charge in the SLD. I ask the question again. Is it improbable due to the exsistance and the power of the old guard of PZPR politicians or is it because the new young generation of SLD leaders aren't able to reform, transform and modernise the SLD and the Left Unity? 5 Maybe communism preserved old values, traditions, customs, ideas and feelings in the former socialist countries. The Roman-Catholic church has a strong cultural, educational, political, social and spiritual power in Poland. Priests have some influence over the believers. Is there a real separation between church and state in Poland or does the high clergy have political influence in parliament and the government, because nearly everybody is Roman-Catholic? 1 I don`t know if it is so good but I feel that in current conditions leftists wouldn`t perform better. 2 Ideology, mainly. Smoleńsk issue. And approach to economy - PiS is socialist when it comes to economy. 3 As long as Kaczyński leads PiS, it is not possible. 4 Mainly because PiS with their socialist ideas on economy is outrunning SLD. No need for SLD if there is PiS. 5 There is influence but some politicians try to resist it and have successes, though not significant. |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 20, 2015 22:19:05 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 20, 2015 23:15:11 GMT 1
Is it because the Leftists lack skills, or because they have a to little support base and small grassroots movement? Has the left stil has some roots in the Marxist-Leninist ideology of the PZPR ( the Polish Communist Party of the Peoples republic) or the leftwing of the European social-democracy, the socialists of the New Left and the 1968 Paris-Berlin (Rudi Dutschke and Daniel-Cohn Bendit) student revolution and generation. How much is the left in Poland influenced by West-European Social-democratic Labour Parties, the Green (ecological) parties, the social liberal parties of Western-Europe and the USA (Democratic Party). Has it stonger roots in the Central-European and Eastern-European Peoples republics or in the Western left. In West-Europe you have the split of the left in the Center-left Moderate Social-democratic parties, like the German SPD, the British Labour Party and the Dutch PvdA ( pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Pracy_(Holandia) ), the leftwing socialist parties like the Linkspartei in Germany and the Socialist Party in the Netherlands ( pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Socjalistyczna_(Holandia) ), the Green Parties; Bundnis 90-Die Grüne, Les Verts and GroenLinks ( pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zielona_Lewica_(Holandia) ). And do you have the non-parliamentarian left in Poland too. The Anarchist squaters, the leftwing student movements, Trotskists, Maoists, International Socialists and etc. I was surprised and amazed during my student time in Amsterdam how many radical left and leftwing movements and parties there were, and how fierce the inner left debate and quarrels were. You didn't need the right, the leftists would attack each other. Maybe that is their weakness. The power of the right is that the right uses the egocentric, ethnocentric, selfish, patriotic, nationalistic, regionalist, capitalist, conservative, traditional, social-cultural, religious, family clan, tribal (in the sense of the people, the nation; or in the Polish sense the trinity of people, religion and nation, more serious). The left has more difficult ideals, subjects and aims, like internationalism, solidarity, class struggle, levelling, multi-culturalism, anti-clericalism, secularism, social security, the progressive art and culture world, social security and a balance between Laisses Faire Market economy and Etatist state control and planning more serious. What is the support base of the Polish left? Students and pupils, old communists with homesickness and nostalgic feelings about the Polish Peoples Republic, older people, Feminists, leftwing socialists, environmental activists, Gay right activists and some leftwing intellectuals? (Professors, highschool teachers, some writers, poets, artists, journalists and critics) Could you compare the PiS with the Pre-war PPS then, which was socialist and Polish Patriotic (Nationalist) in the same time. Or a merger of the PPS and the Endecja movement of the National Democrats and elements of the authoritarian Sanacja government and parties? What kind of socialism is the PiS socialism? Rightwing socialism, in the sense of a Polish socialism with conservative Polish elements in it? Would a PiS-PO coalition without Kaczyński work? Which party or party wing would be dominant in it. Could a merger of PiS and PO elements into a new party be possible? What would be the best solution in the interest of Poland be in your opinion. A continuation of the present PO government, a change of government with a PiS prime minister, president and maybe a PiS-PSL coalition government with the support of the smaller rightwing parties? Could a PiS-PSL-SLD government coalition be possible? Is the leftwing SLD only social-democratic, secular and progressive, or has the SLD a Roman-Catholic, Patriotic or centrist wing too next to the traditional leftwing of former communists, social-democrats and socialists? So, does PiS attract leftwing voters, protest votes, populist votes and votes of former non-voters? Has the PiS socialism roots in pre-war socialism (PPS), in the Polish Peoples Republic ( PZPR) or in Western-European Social-democratic and leftwing Christian-Democratic (the social christian wings of this movement) governments which had socialist etatist social policies in the social capitalist context (Rhine land economical model of Germany and the Netherlands, which was a mix of capitalist, socialist and corporatist economy). Does the Roman-Catholic church of Poland supports the socialist ideology, opposition and policies of PiS from a christian perspective. With a christian perspective I mean the communitarian, compassionate, empathic, caring side of the church, in the sense of taking care of the poor, community life amd the social attitudes and programs of the church. Sometimes Roman-Catholic theology and social thought clashes with the harsh sides of Capitalism. That's why I ask if Roman-Catholic priests, Bishops and Cardinals have sympathy for the Polish socialism and maybe Catholic socialism of PiS? Do these politicians have succes due to a process of secularisation in Poland? Where do the politicians fail in their resistance or in resisting the political influence of the church in state, political and for instance educational matters? Which politicians try to resist it? |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 20, 2015 23:44:02 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 21, 2015 0:11:32 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 21, 2015 20:12:00 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 23, 2015 20:55:10 GMT 1
Last pre-election poll: PiS likely to win general election
23.10.2015 14:08
Six parties will likely get elected into parliament, according to the last poll before Sunday’s elections, with conservative Law and Justice (PiS) likely gathering 38.3 percent of the ballot.
The governing Civic Platform (PO) could count on 22.1 percent support, while the Kukiz’15 political grouping to raise 12.5 percent of the vote.
According to the latest pre-election poll by Ipsos for national broadcaster TVP1, other parties to get in the lower house of parliament include United Left with 8.1 percent (just above the eight-percent threshold required for coalitions), ModernPL (6.6 percent) and the Polish Peoples Party (6.5 percent).
According to the electoral law, parties need to get at least five percent of the vote to get a seat in parliament.
The turnout in the general elections on Sunday 25 October is expected to be 48.5 percent.link
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 23, 2015 23:27:02 GMT 1
Dear Bo,
Does this mean that the Polish economy will change from a market economy to a more planned economy with the socialist PiS, in the financial-economical sense, in government position?
Does the PiS party has enough votes to have a one party government or will they have to cooperate with Kukiz’15 political grouping or the traditional coalition partner in center-right and center-left governments, PSL. Probably the 6.5 of the PSL is to less to be able to be influential as a party. The PSL probably wouldn't like to be a tiny minority party in a government with PiS with 38.3 percent. If the polls are correct. Polls in the Netherlands learned me that they can be unreliable and that political trends and hypes can change the situation in the last moment.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 26, 2015 17:05:31 GMT 1
 Poland's conservative Law and Justice party wins election, should able to govern alone: exit pollsExit polls show the opposition Law and Justice (PiS) party leading with 37.7 percent of votes. If confirmed, that result would make PiS the first single party to secure a majority in a democratic election in Poland. Swing to the right in PolandThe conservative Law and Justice Party (PiS) has won Sunday's parliamentary elections in Poland with 37.7 percent of the vote, giving the party enough to form a government without a coalition, according to exit polls. Led by eurosceptic Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the party will pick up 232 out of 460 seats in the lower house, compared to incumbent Prime Minister Ewa Kopacz's Civic Platform's showing of 23.6 percent, or 137 seats, the polls indicated. The exit polls showed only three other parties making it into parliament, one led by rock star Pawel Kukiz, a new pro-business party Modern Poland and the Polish Peasants Party. Leftist parties were voted out of parliament for the first time since the collapse of communism in 1989. The results come despite eight years of economic growth and political stability under the centrist and pro-market Civic Platform. The party helped Poland through the 2008 financial crisis with positive growth and the 2010 plane crash that killed President Lech Kaczynski, Jaroslaw's brother.  Voting in Poland "We didn't waste the last eight years," Kopacz told Civic Platform supporters, conceding election defeat. "Poland is a country that has made economic progress, unemployment is down to single-digits. This is the Poland we leave to the election winners." Official results are expected on Monday. Worry or rejoice?The PiS, if the results are confirmed, would be the first party to rule Poland since the end of communism with an absolute majority in parliament. Critics of the PiS worry their rule could destabilize the country's currently stable finances and usher in a period of political instability. Former premier Kaczynski, who didn't run even though he heads the party, chose Beata Szydlo, 52, to be the PiS's choice for prime minister earlier this year. She helped run a campaign that made a relatively unknown figure, Andrzej Duda, president. That choice prompted concern Szydlo would be the public face for Kaczynski, a controversial figure whose term as prime minister was marked by domestic political turmoil and tense international relations. In response, Szydlo has claimed she is independent and has her own ideas. Szydlo and Kaczynski ran the campaign on bread-and-butter issues and simmering fears in conservative, Catholic Poland over the largest migrant crisis to hit Europe since World War II. Kaczynski stoked nationalist concerns over refugees during the campaign, claiming migrants could bring disease and disrupt the social fabric of Poland. His view is that Poland should provide financial help to the EU to deal with refugees but not accept any, a policy that polls show is supported by 60 percent of Poles. Szydlo promised to cut taxes for small and medium-sized businesses, lower the pension age after Civic Platform raised it, increase family benefits, lower taxes on families and impose taxes on banks and large foreign-owned supermarkets. PiS opposes adopting the euro currency and is strongly pro-NATO. But its anti-immigration stance is expected to have an impact on the EU's immigration policy - possibly putting Poland at loggerheads with Germany, the economic powerhouse of Europe expecting up to a million refugees this year. cw/tj (AFP, AP, dpa, Reuters) |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 26, 2015 23:08:23 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo and Jeanne, This is democracy at work. The past twenty years center-right, leftwing, rightwing, center-left, center right (the PO-PSL government) and now PiS again have ruled. It is the will of the people, the voters have spoken. We Polish diapora and people with interest in Poland from abroad can be critical about it, but it is how the Poles feel. In my opinion PiS is rightwing to center-right in the social-cultural, ethnical and national level. In the Dutch media the party is called a Nationalist-conservative party with Populistic elements in it. And that is ofcourse coloured with a Dutch, Western-European glasses on. It is clear to me that a conservative influence of the Polish Roman-Catholic clergy in the churches must have had some influence. Ofcourse most PO members, voters and politicians are Roman-Catholics too, but maybe slightly less conservative and Polish socialist as PiS. Because in the financial-economical sense PiS is socialist like Unia Pracy, SDPL (Socjaldemokracja Polska) and the larger Democratic Left Alliance (Polish: Sojusz Lewicy Demokratycznej, SLD). Law and Justice Law and Justice ( Prawo i Sprawiedliwość), abbreviated to PiS, is a national-conservative political party in Poland. With 138 seats in the Sejm and 30 in the Senate, it is currently the second-largest party in the Polish parliament. The party was founded in 2001 by the Kaczyński twins, Lech and Jarosław. It was formed from part of the Solidarity Electoral Action ( AWS), with the Christian democratic Centre Agreement forming the new party's core. The party won the 2005 election, while Lech Kaczyński won the presidency. Jarosław served as Prime Minister, before calling elections in 2007, in which the party came second to Civic Platform ( PO). Several leading members, including Lech Kaczyński, died in a plane crash in 2010.  Lech and Jarosław KaczyńskiThe party programme is dominated by the Kaczyńskis' conservative and law and order agenda. It has embraced economic interventionism, while maintaining a socially conservative stance that in 2005 moved towards the Catholic Church; the party's Catholic-nationalist wing split off in 2011 to form United Poland. The party is mildly eurosceptic. PiS is a member of the Alliance of European Conservatives and Reformists ( AECR) European political party. The current sixteen PiS MEPs sit in the European Conservatives and Reformists ( ECR) group in the European Parliament.  Lech and Jarosław KaczyńskiIdeology Initially the party was broadly pro-market, although less so than the Civic Platform. It has adopted the social market economy rhetoric of western European Christian democratic parties. In the 2005 election, the party shifted to the protectionist left on economics. As Prime Minister, Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz was more economically liberal than the Kaczyńskis, advocating a position closer to Civic Platform. However, unlike Civic Platform, whose emphasis is the economy, Law and Justice's focus is fighting corruption. On foreign policy, PiS is Atlanticist and less supportive of European integration than Civic Platform. The party is soft eurosceptic, and opposes a federal Europe. In its campaigns, it emphasises that the European Union should 'b enefit Poland and not the other way around'. It is a member of the anti-federalist Alliance of European Conservatives and Reformists, having previously been a part of the Alliance for Europe of the Nations and, before that, the European People's Party. PiS EconomyThe party supports a state-guaranteed minimum social safety net and state intervention in the economy within market economy bounds. During the election campaign it proposed tax decrease to two personal tax rates (18% and 32%) and tax rebates related to the number of children in a family, as well as a reduction of the VAT rate (while keeping a variation between individual types of VAT rates). 18% and 32% tax rates were eventually implemented. Also: a continuation of privatisation with the exclusion of several dozen state companies deemed to be of strategic importance for the country. PiS opposes cutting social welfare spending, and also proposed the introduction of a system of state-guaranteed housing loans (also unimplemented[citation needed]). PiS on Social issuesThe party's views on social issues are broadly similar to those of conservative parties in other European countries. It favors restrictions on abortion, which is already illegal except in extraordinary circumstances. It is also against euthanasia. It opposes same-sex marriages or any other form of legal recognition of homosexual couples. The PiS are highly critical of sex and violence in the media. PiS promotes itself as a pro-family party. Prior to elections, it promised to build 3 million inexpensive housing units as a way to help young couples get married. Once in government, it pushed through legislations lengthening maternal leaves and offered qualified support to the idea of giving parents a grant for every newly-born child. It favors shutting down large supermarkets on Sundays and holidays, so their workers can spend more time with their families. While PiS presents itself as a champion of the Catholic Church, its policies do not always align with the Church's teaching. It has also shown some flexibility in such matters as in vitro fertilization and stem cell research. Comment:My (Pieter) worry is that the new PiS government will be a potential danger to the Polish financial and economical succes of the past decade and that to large government spending on social programs will harm the Polish position on the European and world markets. We are more secular in the Netherlands, but if you look at the Dutch polls the far right Populist PVV party of Geert Wilders has 20.1 percent of the votes (31 seats in parliament), the largest center right party and government party, the conservative-liberal (PO like) VVD has 17.9 percent of the votes (28 seats in paliament), the center-right social-conservative Christian-Democrats of the CDA 12.1 percent of the votes (18 seats in parliament), the christian-fundamentalist Calvinist Protestant SGP has 3 percent of the votes (4 seats in parliament) and 50PLUS, a Pensioners' interests political party in the Netherlands; which gains 3.8 percent in the polls (5 seats in parliament). And therefor the right has a majority of 56.8 in parliament. The left and center left gains 42.4 percent of the votes: The Social-DemocraticDutch Labour Party (PvdA) (A government party in coalition with the center right VVD: 8.7 percent of the votes, which means 13 seats in parliament. This is a historical low, when you consider that the PvdA (Labour party) always was as large as the PVV and VVD now. They have dropped dramatically. The center-left pragmatic liberal D66: With 14 percent of the votes the pragmatic liberal and partly center-left libertarian party this once small centrist party gaines the most votes of the leftwing parties in these polls. It will have 21 seats in parliament. The Socialist SP: the Socialists with their leftwing populist and traditional leftwing social-democratic propaganda, excellent party machine and campaigns took a lot of votes away from Labour (PvdA) and the GreenLeft party. But even these leftwing populists saw and see a loss in votes to the rightwing populist PVV party of Geert Wilders. The SP has 8.4 percent of the votes which is 13 seats in parliament. (Thus Labour and the Leftwing Patriotic SP are equally big in the polls) The christian-democratic, social-christian (Biblical) ChristianUnion: 4 percent of the votes which means 6 seats in parliament. The Leftwing liberal and partly socialist and Green ecological GreenLeft party: Has 5.8 percent of the votes which means 8 seats in parliament. The situation for the left is less dramatic than in Poland, but the right, center-right and centrist parties are stronger. The left has no power in parliament, nor in the provincial and local councils. There is a rightwing climate, and even within some left parties you see, conservative, populist, anti-migrant tendencies. Especially with some local SP (Socialist) and Labour party politicians and organisations. We point at Eastern-Europe and Central-Europe and say, see those Nationalistic, religious, xenophobe Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Serbs, Croats, Slovenes and Greeks. But look at Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, France, Italy, Austria and Switzerland. Nationalists, rightwing populists, xenophobes and others disguise themselves in so called reasonable national-patriotic, conservative parties. They are the same as the former far right, but today moderate Rightwing Populists (with Social-democratic, Christian-Democratic, Liberal-conservative FDP/VVD roots) merge with the old and new far right. This new phenomenon of the respected rightwing populists cooperating with the far right neo-nazi and hooligan elements is a new development in Germany (and other countries too). Cheers, Pieter |
|
|
|
Post by jeanne on Oct 27, 2015 0:27:35 GMT 1
It is clear to me that a conservative influence of the Polish Roman-Catholic clergy in the churches must have had some influence. Ofcourse most PO members, voters and politicians are Roman-Catholics too, but maybe slightly less conservative and Polish socialist as PiS. I know that here in the US the Roman Catholic Church itself (not the US government) does not permit its clergy to preach about politics from the pulpit. They are only allowed to urge their parishioners to exercise their right to vote. I thought this would be a universal policy of the Church, but perhaps I'm wrong. One thing I have learned from items on this forum is that in Poland the line between state and church can be a little blurry! |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 27, 2015 15:22:05 GMT 1
Dear Jeanne,
I believe that the separation of church and state, the distance in the relationship between organised religion and the nation state, is a very important aspect for a democracy and democratic state. First of all because Poland is not only a nation of Roman-Catholics, but also a state of atheist (secular-humanist) Poles, Protestant christian Poles (Lutheranians, Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists and Jehova Witnesses), Jews, Muslims and Buddhists (the Chinese and Vietnamese minority in Poland).
The Church is not a democratic institution and the Vatican is a foreign power and entity. As an institution of all Roman-Catholics world wide, and an institution with a very progressive pope, it will not always serve the interest of conservative Poland. The Vatican will sometimes choose for a diplomatic, appeasing stance where Poland wants confrontation, tough sanctions or measures against another nation to serve it's interests. Also for the Polish church and Roman-Catholic church in general it is very important to stay neutral, objective and to not be a political force. The church is a religious institution, an ethical power, a community of believers and an organisation which plays a role in the religious and community lives of the Roman-Catholics. But the church has no place in the political, legal and professional lives of people. Often Roman-Catholics work in secular or non-Roman-Catholic companies or institutions. I am one of them. My broadcast corporation is a general, public, and secular broadcast corporation.
That doesn't make me less Roman-Catholic, but it surely says that the Roman-Catholic church has no inlfuence on my job there. In the same time the church has no inlfuence on my voting pattern, my political choices and etc. Because church and state are separate here thank god.
That the Roman-Catholic church will get more influence via PiS is not such a good thing in my opinion. Fro the rest the Polish people have voted. They are in majority Roman-Catholic, so it is logic that they voted for a Roman-Catholic Patriotic party.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 27, 2015 23:23:24 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by jeanne on Oct 28, 2015 0:19:48 GMT 1
That is why I am impatiently waiting for the realisation of their major promise - 500 zlotys for each child in the family, monthly. If that`s fulfilled, I will be really rich. I will have money to burn. !!!! Ha! Money to burn? All that money they give you per child will be recouped by them with taxes! How else will they pay for that??? |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 28, 2015 0:27:59 GMT 1
Ha,
It is good to see the good old Bo temperament back. Go for it Bo, PiS needs opposition as a one party rule government. Especially if PiS will follow that terrible Hungarian rightwing chauvinist chap, Viktor Orbán and his national conservative ruling party Fidesz. I hope that PiS won't follow Orbán's "cynical populism and mystifyingly authoritarian socialist-style policies".
In his second term as Prime Minister, Viktor Orbán garnered controversy for his statements against liberal democracy. He also garnered controversy when he proposed an "internet tax", and because of his perceived corruption. Using their supermajority, Fidesz and KDNP adopted a press and media law in 2010, which threatens fines on media that engage in "unbalanced coverage" and created a new constitution in 2012 that modified several aspects of the institutional and legal framework in Hungary; both aroused international criticism.
I hope Poland, Poles and critical opposition figures in the Polish parliament can stop such Hungarian developments.
Cheers,
Pieter
P.S.- Source Wikipedia
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 28, 2015 23:31:05 GMT 1
I hope Poland, Poles and critical opposition figures in the Polish parliament can stop such Hungarian developments. Unfortunately, the wolf isn`t able to change its nature. I am pretty sure PiS will go mad with new laws and regulations with the aim to control everything in Poland. They are even worse than communists. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 28, 2015 23:33:04 GMT 1
That is why I am impatiently waiting for the realisation of their major promise - 500 zlotys for each child in the family, monthly. If that`s fulfilled, I will be really rich. I will have money to burn. !!!! Ha! Money to burn? All that money they give you per child will be recouped by them with taxes! How else will they pay for that??? Exactly, but still some change will stay in my pocket, I will be slightly in the black. I pity those who don`t have any children - they will pay through their noses for my benefits. |
|
|
|
Post by jeanne on Oct 29, 2015 0:14:40 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 29, 2015 13:38:36 GMT 1
That would be good for the balance between christians and jews in Europe. Today some people in Western-Europe prefer Polish immigrants over Syrian immigrants, because they are Roman-Catholic (christian) and European (white like them, but they won't say it). The demographic race in the world is a serious issue. But before I become to serious, I understand your joke Jeanne and appreciate it! |
|
|
|
Post by jeanne on Oct 29, 2015 14:50:29 GMT 1
That would be good for the balance between christians and jews in Europe. Today some people in Western-Europe prefer Polish immigrants over Syrian immigrants, because they are Roman-Catholic (christian) and European (white like them, but they won't say it). The demographic race in the world is a serious issue. Yes, the citizens of Europe have been in the process of committing demographic suicide for awhile now through their low birth rates...I don't know if they really do realize the implications of doing so! Why are they surprised that other peoples are now moving to fill the vacuum they have created in Europe? Thanks, Pieter! I know Bonobo will understand my joke...but I don't know if he will appreciate it!  |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 29, 2015 22:17:36 GMT 1
Thanks, Pieter! I know Bonobo will understand my joke...but I don't know if he will appreciate it! I never fail to understand and never cease to appreciate your jokes. Peter`s too. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 31, 2015 20:50:43 GMT 1
Is it because the Leftists lack skills, or because they have a to little support base and small grassroots movement? Has the left stil has some roots in the Marxist-Leninist ideology of the PZPR SLD has such roots through their leaders who participated in communist system long ago. But now Miller vowed to quit his chairman position. But new left has arisen in last elections. Young and pragmatic. They didn`t enter the Parliament but won enough votes to get donation from the state and start building political formation. Peter, don`t ask me about them cause I know practically nothing. I learned about their party after elections. They seem to be ardent left, not smeared with communist stigmata. Read their manifestos: linklink |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 1, 2015 21:39:17 GMT 1
Thank you for your interesting and informative reply. Razem is an interesting phenomenon, but a minority because it criticizes both the right (PiS and PO) and the SLD.   Partia Razem (Polish pronunciation: [ˌpartja ˈrazɛm], Together Party) is a Polish political party formed in May 2015. It is one of the eight nationwide committees standing in the parliamentary election of 2015. HistoryRazem was founded as a response to the unsuccessful attempt to create a left-wing political platform in Poland during the presidential election. Another reason was dissatisfaction with the post-communist Democratic Left Alliance's role as the main left-wing party. Many founders were previously activists in the Young Socialists, the Polish Green party or local initiatives, like Krakow Against Games. Its main political stances were formulated during the founding congress on 16–17 May 2015. However, several local structures were active even earlier, in March and April. The party was officially registered on 21 July. Razem has registered lists for the 2015 election in all electoral districts and managed to reach 3,62% in the election, not enough to gain a seat in the parliament. IdeologyThe party advocates labor rights and opposes deregulation. Among its main goals are strengthening redistribution, adopting 35-hour workweek, raising the income tax threshold to 12,000 PLN (ca. $3,200) and creating a tax-funded healthcare program. It also demands to completely remove special economic zones from Poland. The party's economic program is partially inspired by the Nordic model. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model ) Regarding the social policy, Razem is largely liberal. The party supports drug liberalization, sex education in schools and LGBT rights. It also strictly follows gender quotas. Razem opposes TTIP ( the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership ) . According to the official party stance, TTIP will “ undermine the financial stability and lead to rapid growth of debt”. StructureThe party has no singular leadership. Instead, it is governed by five branches: - Congress — the supreme authority of the party; elects the members of the National Executive Board, Council and Audit Commission, enacts the party program; - National Council — the legislative body; - National Executive Board — the executive body; members of the Board also act as public representatives of the party; - National Audit Commission — the control body; - National Court of Arbitration — the judicial body, composed of the members of the Council. This structure is mirrored on the local level, with the District Assemblies, Boards and Councils. As of October 2015, the Board consists of nine people: Aleksandra Cacha, Alicja Czubek, Jakub Danecki, Magdalena Malińska, Mateusz Mirys, Katarzyna Paprota, Piotr Szmielew, Adrian Zandberg and Marcelina Zawisza. partiarazem.pl/pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Razem |
|
A university study would be a dream for me. I am just a former vocational university (Art Academy) student. 
