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Post by tufta on Nov 11, 2008 7:58:04 GMT 1
We the U.S.A. want to make Poland a safer place for all, at our cost, and manpower. Mike Mike, I would say you the USA want to make USA a safer place for all, at your cost and manpower. If by coincidence the interest of Poland and US is in some realm is the same, US making itself safer makes Poland safer too, and Poland making hersef safer helps the safety of USA. That is all. |
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Post by tufta on Nov 11, 2008 8:01:42 GMT 1
Btw. I don't think there's a group of subject that should be avoided as too provoking. Any subject can be discussed. It is in the interlocutors, or rather the way they discuus, that the danger lies  Exactly. And now to the shield. Here's my opinion - in italics jagahost.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=newscurrent&action=display&thread=3438&page=2#40427My comment - I am presently one of the 36% of Poles which are for the anti-missle shield in Poland. I wish the negotiations will end with bilateral success enabling US shield completion and on the other hand an actual strenghtening of Polish anti- middle and short -track ballistic defence as well. The present situation in Poland is such that the sole and obvious political advantages of hosting the shield are not enough. On the other hand, Poland faced with strong Russian influence inside Eurepean Union, mainly through Germany, does not have much choice but to build even closer relations with USA. Unfortunately American decion makers now that just too well, thus the very hard negotiations.Nothing changed since when I wrote it, except perhaps from the percentage of Poles saying yes to the shield- last time I checked it was well over 50 %. But on the other hand I quite I agree with you, it is not the matter of life and death for us. (But interestingly, it is an excellent litmus test for the agenda of those feriously against the shield.) I hope you do realise that Poland is important to the USA as long as it can be used against Russia. I think it is much more complicated. Just the same as the other way round - USA is important to Poland NOT just for one reason. Besides, Russia is not the main enemy or competitor of USA, it is much too weak for that. |
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Post by tufta on Nov 11, 2008 8:10:06 GMT 1
Yesterday at 4:43pm, valpomike wrote:
Do you think if Russia made a move on Poland the U.S.A. would do nothing? We did in the past, and will, if need be, again.
The shield is for many places in Europe, since they could not reach us with there missles.
Mike
Mike, probability of Russia moving into Poland right now is close to zero. They cannot economically afford a modern war on that scale, and we on our own part are with all our potency making aggression on Poland as costly as can be. Neither can they afford such a war in political terms. And here is in part a role of US, as a Polish ally.
But if you need it, let's assume Russians had gone crazy and they do attack the North-Eastern part of Poland with intention to incorporate it into Kaliningrad Region. So, you please tell me, what do you think US would do?
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Post by tufta on Nov 11, 2008 8:12:01 GMT 1
Do you remember the big war, WW II, we came in and saved Poland than, is this not true. Mike My goodness Mike... If one needs advertise American role in backing Poland, it is much better to concentrate on the US backing Poles' will to form own country in 1918. Then on political help Poland has gotten while struggling again for independence finally achieved in 1989-90. Then on the firm political will to include Poland in NATO. And most of all on the pressure exerted on Western Europe, especially Germany, to include Poland in EU. It is certain Poland would not be in NATO without American backing, and most of all she wouldn't be in EU, as the biggest EU country, which is Germany, was initially against it. But Mike, never mention in that context the absolutely disgraceful, deceptive stance of US towards Poland during WWII. |
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Post by Bonobo on Nov 11, 2008 8:35:23 GMT 1
Do you remember the big war, WW II, we came in and saved Poland than, is this not true. Mike My goodness Mike... If one needs advertise American role in backing Poland, it is much better to concentrate on the US backing Poles' will to form own country in 1918. Then on political help Poland has gotten while struggling again for independence finally achieved in 1989-90. Then on the firm political will to include Poland in NATO. And most of all on the pressure exerted on Western Europe, especially Germany, to include Poland in EU. It is certain Poland would not be in NATO without American backing, and most of all she wouldn't be in EU, as the biggest EU country, which is Germany, was initially against it. But Mike, never mention in that context the absolutely disgraceful, deceptive stance of US towards Poland during WWII. Mike, it wasn`t US which came in and saved Poland. It was Soviet/ Russian soldiers. Didn`t you read another thread about Polish students putting flowers on Soviet soldiers` graves?  During WW2 Americans didn`t move a finger to help Poland. Sad but true. Tufta, you mentioned 1917 declaration of Wilson in which he supported the creation of Poland. I can call it the only gratuitous gesture of real sympathy and friendship that Poles ever received from an American politician. He didn`t have to do it, but did, for reasons I haven`t studied yet: either out of pure honesty or under some pressure from American Polonia and other Poles. Ptobably out of both. All the rest of the backing you mentioned, e.g, NATO and support for Solidarity were meant to play Poland against Russia. Do you remember the big war, WW II, we came in and saved Poland than, is this not true. Mike If we did not step in during WWII, it may have been still going on. Mike Why would anyone think that the U.S.A. would not be there for Poland if and when she had a need? Mike Mike, I have a request to you. Instead of producing 3 seperate posts within 10 minutes, one by one, can you use the Modify button to add new thoughts to your first post??? In this way we will save on the space in Polish Forum`s threads. Too many posts are too tiring, if there can be one instead of 3, let it be one. |
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Post by tufta on Nov 11, 2008 8:43:48 GMT 1
Mike, it wasn`t US which came in and saved Poland. It was Soviet/ Russian soldiers. Exactly, plus the Polish soldiers. In technical layer US did help provide resources for these soldiers to fight, but that's all. And Mike, please don't mix the Soviet/Russian soldier with Soviet Russia, which, just as USA has acted towards Poland in a smilarly disgraceful and deceptive way as the US. And yes, sad but true. |
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Post by valpomike on Nov 11, 2008 15:04:35 GMT 1
I got all up and posting, did I not, but I still believe the U.S.A. would back Poland, and did take some action with Georgia, and had to stop.
Without us, the U.S.A. in WW II the war would still be going on, and you all in Poland would now speak German.
Mike
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Post by Bonobo on Nov 11, 2008 15:14:18 GMT 1
I got all up and posting, did I not, but I still believe the U.S.A. would back Poland, and did take some action with Georgia, and had to stop. Mike, you got it wrong. It wasn`t really the US which pressed on Russia to leave Georgia. It was the EU`s diplomacy. ;D ;D Ys, you got us up, hey, have you learnt the ways to arouse interest in threads?? ;D ;D ;D ;D Hmm, I am afraid most historians wouldn`t agree with you. Yes, American Lend&Lease Act and extensive material help to the Soviet Union had some contribution to the victory over Germans, we can only discuss how important it was. Yet, the main battlefield in WW2 was in Europe`s Eastern Front and it was the forces of the Soviet Red Army which, sustaining incredible losses, 3 killed soldiers to one German, smashed Germany, annihiliated the Nasty Nazis and conquered half Europe for Stalin. |
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
Posts: 1,470
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Post by gigi on Nov 11, 2008 15:46:15 GMT 1
I got all up and posting, did I not Doing a bit of trolling today, eh?  |
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Post by Bonobo on Nov 25, 2008 0:24:21 GMT 1
Sikorski: Poland needs patience on anti-missile shield
thenews.pl
21.11.2008
Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, currently in the US, has said
that Poland will patiently wait for final details concerning the
deployment of the US antimissile shield.
He said that and that Poland won't put any pressure on the new Obama administration which is to take power in January.
"We just need to be patient," said Sikorski and added that the
process could take up to several months.
Sikorski declared that the anti-missile agreement, signed in Warsaw
in August, also depends on the new Congress - where the Democrats have increased control since the election - to assign funds for the project conditional on proving that the defence system actually works.
"Poland can't act as a lobbying party. We are a serious ally, who in
an act of friendship agreed to host the US installation. Let's not
forget that this is a US project. We can only hope that the Polish-US
alliance will be stronger and stronger irrespective of the fate of
this particular initiative," Minister Sikorski said.
On Thursday the head of Poland's diplomacy met with Democratic
Congresswoman Ellen Tauscher, as well as Democratic Senator Barbara Mikulski.
On his last day of the trip to the USA Sikorski is to meet with the
former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and her deputy Strobe
Talbott.
DEFENSE: Eastern Europe to U.S.: Wait, Wait, Now We Want Your
Missiles!
By Nikola Horejs
Public Integrity, DC
November 21, 2008
The controversy over the missile defense system the United States
plans to build in Eastern Europe has taken almost a 360-degree turn recently. Until November the Bush administration had been courting our "new Europe" pals, the Poles and Czechs, offering planes, missiles, discounts, and other goodies to help smooth the way for the Star Wars installation. But on November 4, the tables turned.
Polish and Czech ministers have been touring Washington in recent
days, quietly meeting with advisers to Prez-Elect Obama and
encouraging him to maintain Bush's plans – though they're being tight-
lipped about it. "I can't tell you whom I've met; I am not a fool,"
Czech Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Vondra told PaperTrail after
his closed-door meeting at the Brookings Institute on Tuesday.
Poland's foreign minister, Rados³aw Sikorski, spoke the next day at
the Atlantic Council of the United States. Poland will "wait until
the new administration makes its assessments, " he said, but "we would like to see the project continue."
That may be a hard sell. The missile defense project is am ong the
top candidates for Pentagon budget cuts. The system hasn't been
proved effective, argue some experts, and it gives angry Russians an excuse to deploy more missiles themselves. Obama's aides have said repeatedly the new president would support the system only "when the technology is proved to be workable."
The European branch of the system is meant to protect America and
other NATO countries from the potential launch of a ballistic missile
by Iran or North Korea. But protecting Americans and other foreigners is not exactly a top priority for Poles and Czechs, so their
governments have had to sell the system as a security guarantee and a shield against Russian influence. That's worked in Poland, where Washington has faced only minor opposition from the center-left government, but less well in the Czech Republic, where two-thirds of Czechs oppose the presence of any foreign military base.
Still, their leaders seem wedded to the idea of hosting the U.S.
missile defense program. As Sikorski said at the Atlantic Council
presentation: "Everybody assumes that countries that have U.S.
soldiers on their territory do not get invaded."
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Post by tufta on Dec 4, 2008 18:02:45 GMT 1
Poland welcomes NATO decisions 03.12.2008
NATO foreign ministers, gathered in Brussels, confirmed that the US missile defense shield, to be created in Poland and the Czech Republic will contribute greatly to the protection of NATO member states against long range missiles. They declared clearly for the first time that the shield elements in Europe will be a part of a future NATO anti-missile defense system.
NATO has called on Russia to refrain from issuing “confrontational statements” and threatening to deploy short range missiles in Kaliningrad.
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Post by valpomike on Dec 4, 2008 21:50:47 GMT 1
All along, I said, this was good for Poland and a high cost to us, here in U.S.A.
Mike
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 4, 2008 22:19:09 GMT 1
All along, I said, this was good for Poland and a high cost to us, here in U.S.A. Mike Oh, come on, these 2 or 3 billion bucks? What is it? Did you hear about 700 billion bailout for American banks?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
Posts: 1,470
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Post by gigi on Dec 4, 2008 22:34:38 GMT 1
[ Oh, come on, these 2 or 3 billion bucks? What is it? Did you hear about 700 billion bailout for American banks? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D And a bailout of American Automakers might be next... |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 4, 2008 22:47:11 GMT 1
[ Oh, come on, these 2 or 3 billion bucks? What is it? Did you hear about 700 billion bailout for American banks? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D And a bailout of American Automakers might be next... You forgot to add  or  |
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
Posts: 1,470
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Post by gigi on Dec 4, 2008 22:57:19 GMT 1
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 4, 2008 23:03:23 GMT 1
I have problems with deciphering women`s gestures and body language. What does the face mean? |
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
Posts: 1,470
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Post by gigi on Dec 4, 2008 23:26:47 GMT 1
I have problems with deciphering women`s gestures and body language. It's never too late to learn...  The equivalent of "Oh brother" or "Here we go again". |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 5, 2008 0:06:10 GMT 1
Poland welcomes NATO decisions 03.12.2008
NATO foreign ministers, gathered in Brussels, confirmed that the US missile defense shield, to be created in Poland and the Czech Republic will contribute greatly to the protection of NATO member states against long range missiles. They declared clearly for the first time that the shield elements in Europe will be a part of a future NATO anti-missile defense system.
NATO has called on Russia to refrain from issuing “confrontational statements” and threatening to deploy short range missiles in Kaliningrad. Of course NATO officials welcome the shield happily. They get a protection from rogue countries` threat for free. The USA will cover the expenses, Poland and Czech Republic provide the location and accept the terrorist attack risk. Also Western governments do, but are careful not to reveal it to their anti American public opinion not to lose political support at the next elections. Stinking hypocrites. |
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Post by valpomike on Dec 5, 2008 5:10:35 GMT 1
This is not something we put up and it works its self, we will have to our people there full time to mend it. I this could be many. More of our troops away from home to help others, and those are unhappy with it. Why does this great place force our help on others, even some who don't want it? Why do we have to be the police force of the world?
Mike
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Post by tufta on Dec 5, 2008 8:59:56 GMT 1
All along, I said, this was good for Poland and a high cost to us, here in U.S.A. Mike First of all it is good for US. We only agreed to host the installation. You should be grateful. And yes, at the same time it is good for Poland, so you need not be too gratetful, Mike. |
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Post by tufta on Dec 5, 2008 9:09:09 GMT 1
Why do we have to be the police force of the world? Mike Mike, you have to be the police force of the world because your military doctrine says- keep the aggressor far from our land. This sometimes requires some actions in the remote parts of the globe which seem at least strange to the public. This is a perfect doctrine. Don't be mislead by the tactical (short range or means chosen) mistakes they are just what they are, the mistakes in action. The US strategy is excellent, and THIS is something very American, not neccesarily log houses, you can and should be very proud of. Stable, unchangable foreign policy and military doctrine which never changes since Pearl Harbour, no matter who wins the elections - Clinton, Bush, O'bama, McCain you name it. |
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Post by valpomike on Dec 5, 2008 15:34:35 GMT 1
Tufta,
Why is the shield good for us in America? We pay for it, and we staff it, and take all the flack from wanting it. We bring money into Poland for the building of it, and our staff spend money when they live in Poland. This is why I say, how is this good to us, the Americans.
Mike
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Post by valpomike on Dec 6, 2008 18:26:30 GMT 1
No more feedback on this, of my last posting?
Mike
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 6, 2008 22:22:32 GMT 1
Ashe in Redzikowo
The Warsaw Voice
3 December 2008
Residents of Redzikowo in Pomerania province met U.S. Ambassador
Victor Ashe Nov. 25 and presented him with a letter protesting plans
to locate an interceptor missile base in their town as part of the
American missile defense system.
"We are deeply concerned by the threats which are coming to our
region from all directions," the letter said. "You are probably aware
that 90 percent of the residents object to the location of the
facility, which means risks for Redzikowo and the entire region of
central Pomerania. At the same time, we hope the wishes and fears of
the locals will at least be noticed by the powers-that- be on the
American side." Ashe did not comment on the contents of the letter,
which he received after an hour-long meeting with a dozen residents
of Redzikowo.
The meeting was the first opportunity for the locals to discuss the
missile shield with someone representing the U.S. administration.
Ashe had said he was looking forward to such a meeting during his
previous visit to the area in October. The ambassador answered
questions concerning the plans to build a launching pad for 10 anti-
ballistic missiles on a former military airstrip in Redzikowo. Ashe
said the base would not constitute any threat to the locals and added the Americans stationed there would become members of the local community. He added the current residents would not be inconvenienced by the base in any way. The latter problem was discussed in conjunction with concerns about use of water intakes in the airstrip and a planned local road.
The Warsaw Voice
3 December 2008
Residents of Redzikowo in Pomerania province met U.S. Ambassador
Victor Ashe Nov. 25 and presented him with a letter protesting plans to locate an interceptor missile base in their town as part of the American missile defense system.
"We are deeply concerned by the threats which are coming to our
region from all directions," the letter said. "You are probably aware
that 90 percent of the residents object to the location of the
facility, which means risks for Redzikowo and the entire region of
central Pomerania. At the same time, we hope the wishes and fears of the locals will at least be noticed by the powers-that- be on the American side." Ashe did not comment on the contents of the letter, which he received after an hour-long meeting with a dozen residents of Redzikowo.
The meeting was the first opportunity for the locals to discuss the
missile shield with someone representing the U.S. administration.
Ashe had said he was looking forward to such a meeting during his
previous visit to the area in October. The ambassador answered
questions concerning the plans to build a launching pad for 10 anti-
ballistic missiles on a former military airstrip in Redzikowo. Ashe
said the base would not constitute any threat to the locals and added the Americans stationed there would become members of the local community. He added the current residents would not be inconvenienced by the base in any way. The latter problem was discussed in conjunction with concerns about use of water intakes in the airstrip and a planned local road
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Post by tufta on Dec 8, 2008 13:56:50 GMT 1
Tufta, Why is the shield good for us in America? We pay for it, and we staff it, and take all the flack from wanting it. We bring money into Poland for the building of it, and our staff spend money when they live in Poland. This is why I say, how is this good to us, the Americans. Mike Mike, I have already answered yoru question Look above. I have written First of all it (the shield) is good for US. We only agreed to host the installation. You should be grateful.
And yes, at the same time it is good for Poland, so you need not be too gratetful, Mike. You pay for it and for the stuff taking care of it because it is an installation first of all protecting your territory and your allies territory, which in the broad perspective is the same and in line with your military doctrine. |
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Post by valpomike on Dec 8, 2008 20:54:21 GMT 1
And it covers yours and mine Poland, and makes it safer for all, and it puts money into the pockets of yours and mine Poland, and it is a win, win, thing for Poland, at our cost, and staffing. But this is the way the U.S.A., is we care for all.
Mike
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Post by tufta on Dec 9, 2008 12:46:05 GMT 1
And it covers yours and mine Poland, and makes it safer for all, and it puts money into the pockets of yours and mine Poland, and it is a win, win, thing for Poland, at our cost, and staffing. But this is the way the U.S.A., is we care for all. Mike The Soviets said so - they care for all. Mike, excuse this comparison, as US have nothing in common with the Soviet Union. And US cares for US. That's good. Incidentally Polish interests are in part in line with the US interests in our part of the world. Let's be happy about that, but no need to make any ideology to support it. It's worthless. And you are not one of those arrognat simpletons from US all Europe is really fed up with claiming their homeland is always the best, always the 'good guys', and so on. ;D |
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Post by valpomike on Dec 9, 2008 16:29:44 GMT 1
Yes, you do know Poland, but you don't know the U.S.A. but what you read in the slanted press. Remember most all the news you receive in Poland and Europe only receive slanted news.
The U.S.A. does care for Poland, and I think will always be there for them. I know I will.
Mike
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Post by tufta on Dec 9, 2008 18:27:22 GMT 1
Yes, you do know Poland, but you don't know the U.S.A. but what you read in the slanted press. Remember most all the news you receive in Poland and Europe only receive slanted news. The U.S.A. does care for Poland, and I think will always be there for them. I know I will. Mike Our conversation becomes 'empty' Mike. How can you know WHAT press I read? US cares for Poland as much as Poland can be used by US to achieve own goals. Valpomike is not USA. |
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
