|
|
Post by Bonobo on Dec 17, 2008 8:25:04 GMT 1
There is another discussion about religious symbols of one dominant denomination put in public area. First I had it in polishforums, next I ran into it in Jaga`s and we will see how it develops.  School is definitely a public place. Let`s talk about it. Should Catholicism be priviliged in places under state control? I support the idea of keeping crosses, staging Christmas theatricals, sharing a wafer, going to church together. As long as that`s what most students and their parents want, it is OK. Democracy rulez! When parents and students desire to get rid of these symbols, and there is a ballot about it, I will accept every result. For the time being, Catholic symbols are what most people want to stay in schools. At least mine. At the same time, nobody is forced to do anything against their will. If a person doesn`t want to go to church or share a wafer, they don`t have to. We are tolerant. Such cases are rare, indeed, but I remember a student who refused to go to a mass honouring the Pope. He went home instead of church and everything was OK. PS. It is the first poll in this forum. After a year! We are far behind the times. What a shame... ;D ;D ;D ;D I hope I put the questions right there. |
|
|
|
Post by tufta on Dec 17, 2008 9:04:58 GMT 1
I have voted 'no'. I support the idea of keeping crosses, staging Christmas theatricals, sharing a wafer, going to church together. As long as that`s what most students and their parents want, it is OK. Democracy rulez! That's not how democracy works... What you write should be optional for those who want it. Also the religious symbols in public schools are not that fair to me. In private schools - it mat be whatever the owners wish. Same with religion classes - their place is with the church not the school. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Dec 17, 2008 9:28:11 GMT 1
I have voted 'no'. I support the idea of keeping crosses, staging Christmas theatricals, sharing a wafer, going to church together. As long as that`s what most students and their parents want, it is OK. Democracy rulez! That's not how democracy works... Hmmm.... and how does it work? I must have missed some classes about democracy  Exactly!! Each school regulates its own attitude to religion. I am in the one which supports Catholic symbolicism because that`s what students and their parents want. Isn`t it simple? When politicians decree one day schools must get rid of religion, I will also accept it. But for the time beihng there is no such political movement, and the left wing party is in total disarray with less than 5% support. It means sth, doesn`t it? Let parents decide if they want to send their kids to religion classes. When kids are adult, 18, let them decide for themselves. Now I must go to school but I will develop my opinion in the evening. |
|
|
|
Post by tufta on Dec 17, 2008 12:45:44 GMT 1
Bo, before you come back let me elaborate a bit to give you more to think or write about. This is practically all I have to say in that subject, so please don't be surprised if after reading your reply I will not prolong the discussion. T
he democracy does not work the way - 'the majority can do wharever they wish to do'. That would be called 'dictate of majority' not the democracy. The majority just decides which way and how ALL citizens are cared about. Also those who are in minority. In fact the quality of democracy is being evaluated looking at two features - how the system cares for non-majorities i.e. opposition. The second feature is if it is separated from religion - or to use the proper word if democracy is secular. Both these hallmarks in Poland need further improvement.
And in our discussed case. If displaying the religious symbols or any other religious activity in PUBLIC or state school in being voted - the right of minorities to attend school free of religion in a secular country is violated per se, as well as their right to be cared about by the state exactly the same as the majority. So your school is at least acting accordingly to the letter of democracy but against the spirit of the democracy. And contrary to what is generally assumed the spirit of law is more important than the letter of law. The law is FOR the people, all people, not the other way round.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Dec 17, 2008 20:30:08 GMT 1
This is practically all I have to say in that subject, so please don't be surprised if after reading your reply I will not prolong the discussion. ;D ;D Don`t be so sure Unfortunately, that is the way democracy works. Tufta, I am talking about reality, not some GUDI (Great Utopian Democratic Ideas). Compare it to politics: peoples elect their governments and presidents, and a certain course is adopted, the one which suits the majority whose votes had a crucial weight. If their expectations are not fulfilled, they will not vote for the same party in the future. And fullfilling voters` expectations, you can`t avoid ignoring the expectations of others. It is simply impossible. That`s real life, I am sorry, not utopia from books. It is pure utopia. I am not sure if there is such a saying but I think if you try to satisfy everybody, you satisfy nobody. You know you can`t satisfy everybody. So, I prefer it when at least the majority are satisfied. ;D ;D ;D Non-catholics are cared for. They don`t have to attend religion classes or go to church with the class if they don`t want to. The spirit of democracy is the same fancy which I already called utopia. We don`t live in a paradise yet, we live on Earth. Find one country on this planet which is fully democratic, in the sense it abides to the spirit of democracy. What I care about is the fact that in my opinion Catholicism as a religion makes people better. And I certainly want my students to be better, which teacher wouldn`t??? That is why I won`t give up my support for Catholic symbols in Polish schools. But if one day the majority votes they have to disappear, I will accept it. I won`t cry out that my rights of minority are violated. ;D ;D ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by tufta on Dec 18, 2008 9:56:53 GMT 1
Well, if you insist, my dear Krakowian no-uthopian friend ;D But you will stop to like me when I answer, are you ready for that? Here it comes. The democracy as you propose was here in Poland for 40 years. It was called the dictate of proletariat. Or 'peoples democracy'. The workers and peasants - since they are always in majority, simply did what they wanted to do never caring for those in minority. Well, in practice there were some minor deformances, but such was the general idea. And they have called the democratic countries of the West 'imperialistic', and their system 'capitalistic exploitation'. So Bo, tell me please, what's the difference between the times of proletarian dictate and whta we have now - or are supposed to head to now?  ;D  |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Dec 19, 2008 22:29:28 GMT 1
Well, if you insist, my dear Krakowian no-uthopian friend ;D But you will stop to like me when I answer, are you ready for that? Not so fast, not so fast. You will need to do more things, nastier and fouler, for me to start disliking you. I am afraid you got it a bit wrong. The democracy you are talking about wasn`t introduced by the majority. The problem is it was introduced by the tiniest minority possible - Polish communists, a few thousand guys, who used the support of Soviet bayonetts to get power. You know it very well that if the real majority, those peasants and workers, could decide about the system, communists would have had to pack their cases and leave Poland after 2 months. The difference is that now we have a real majority, millions of peasants and workers, plus some intelligentsia too, not a small group of traitors with bolsheviks backing them up. Tufta, I am a history lover. You and I perfectly know what harm liberum veto did to Poland. What you propose today is coming back to the times when a single person could decide about the state`s course. I am sorry but I cannot accept it. PS. Besides, when in high school in 1980s, we hanged crosses on walls after our communist principal had them taken down. We bought a few crosses and put them on walls. If we had been caught, we would have been expelled from school. Students got expelled for less serious things.... I am faithful to my youth ideals. |
|
|
|
Post by tufta on Dec 20, 2008 10:09:19 GMT 1
I am afraid you got it a bit wrong. Wow I am afraid not. I am afraid you either haven't read my post attentievely or didn't give the problem enough thought ;D I said, ' people's democracy general idea, which was distorted', embraced a situation where peasants and workers form a majority which rules without giving a dam* about minority. What you understand as democracy is basically the same, only the ruling majority is being chosen in the more civilized manner. The liberum veto and the noblemans democracy, has nothing to do here. |
|
|
|
Post by tufta on Dec 20, 2008 10:10:37 GMT 1
Not so fast, not so fast. You will need to do more things, nastier and fouler, for me to start disliking you. How about now? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Dec 21, 2008 0:34:08 GMT 1
I said, ' people's democracy general idea, which was distorted', embraced a situation where peasants and workers form a majority which rules without giving a dam* about minority. The minority IS given a damn. They don`t need to follow Catholic way. Nobody is forcing them. Are they burnt at stake? Are they thrown into nasty prisons? Are they expelled from work or school??? No, no, no. The problem is that sometimes the minority gains so many rights it dominates the majority. And the roles get reversed. The notion that, in a democracy, the greatest concern is that the majority will tyrannize and exploit diverse smaller interests, has been criticised by Mancur Olson in the The Logic of Collective Action, who argues instead that narrow and well organised minorities are more likely to assert their interests over those of the majority. Olson argues that when the benefit of political action (e.g. lobbying) are spread over fewer agents, there is a stronger individual incentive to contribute to that political activity. Narrow groups, especially those who can reward active participation to their group goals, might therefore be able to dominate or distort political process, a process studied in public choice theory.
I certainly want to avoid any silly tugs-of-war. 51% and I give up. OK? |
|
|
|
Post by tufta on Dec 22, 2008 19:04:27 GMT 1
I certainly want to avoid any silly tugs-of-war. 51% and I give up. OK? No It was already decided in our Constitution. The state is secular. No religious symbolicism in state-owned places, sorry |
|
tomek
Nursery kid
Posts: 256 
|
Post by tomek on Dec 30, 2008 10:12:28 GMT 1
I don`t care. If this is religion in school or not, the same to me.
I had never problems with priests in schools, they were very nice guys, I like theirs.
When there no religion in school, people can go to church for religion, don`t they?
When there is religion in school, peopel save time and not go to church because they have at school. Simple.
I don`t oppose that my children have religion at school.
Even if not for God it will be done, religion is great tradition in Poland which keeps Polish peoples together. It is a matter different from Western European countryes, in whcih traditional religion is down because peoples stop beliefs and new immigrants take new religion with theirs. And see what happens: people Western Europe don`t know still they live in Western Europe or Asia or Africa.
I am not fascination for church, I look at it normally, but religion can be good for Poland and Polish traditional way.
|
|
|
|
Post by tufta on Dec 30, 2008 12:30:25 GMT 1
I look at it normally, but religion can be good for Poland and Polish traditional way. That is very well said, Tomek. Church helped 'Polish cause' in the past and helps now. There's always some 'golden middle' to be found. Perhaps Bo is right that right now, with the present state of the matters, it is best the way it is. I am really glad you have joined the forum with your distanced and well thought point of view. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Feb 4, 2009 21:52:41 GMT 1
 If someone in Poland doesn`t like what the majority believes in, they should go to US. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Shouldn't 'Iran' stand in the place of "Poland' here, Bo? ;D ;D ;D ;D Or you have changed your orientation and joined the LPR party? ;D ;D ;D ;D I haven`t joined LPR party. ;D ;D Religion makes people friendlier in my opinion, and that plays a role such a place as school, where hundreds of people are amassed in a relatively small space. that's be hard to decide for sure but thankfully there are many choices in america when it comes to education. even home schooling is doable. Poland is big enough to find good choices here too. Do you think that all schools in Poland are like mine? If you did, it was wrong. ;D ;D ;D ;D How did you know that I am a former priest who couldn`t stand celibacy, took off the frock and went to school to teach English instead of religion??? It does matter. In your example, the pupil who spoke a foreign language and didn't speak Polish was new to Polish society. If he/she wants to become a part it, he should learn the official language of the state. Polish is an official language of our state. In contrats to Catholic confession which is not an official confession of our state, as Poland is a secular country. Yes! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Though from Warsaw, you present convincing arguments. ;D ;D ;D ;D Good! ;D ;D ;D ;D I am glad you accept the cross. Tufta, true utopian democracy with liberum veto is extremely harmful - vide Ireland and Lisbon Treaty. For example, everyday, 49% of people who didn`t vote for Kaczyński feel uncomfortable having such a president. Yet, nothing is done to change it. What is it if not the rule of majority that Kaczyński still rules despite general dejection over his rule?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I was serious. What is America for if not for receiving oppressed Pilgrims??? Give those disappointed a new Mayflower and send them to America! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I look at it normally, but religion can be good for Poland and Polish traditional way. That is very well said, Tomek. Church helped 'Polish cause' in the past and helps now. There's always some 'golden middle' to be found. Perhaps Bo is right that right now, with the present state of the matters, it is best the way it is. I am really glad you have joined the forum with your distanced and well thought point of view. i don't necessarily. there are other ways that are more reality based. i think religious upbringing here in the usa can definitely border the fanatic at times. also, morals are way too interjected into the general society here. that was not the case in poland at all. i'm sure it's a bit different now but i sure hope poland keeps religion and church somewhat separated. i think the church definitely helped PL survive but it can also be bad influence if left unchecked. Tufta and Loco, I am glad to see that you have already realised there is great tolerance in my school and no fanaticism. Most students and teachers want to keep religious symbolicism, yet the ones who refuse to accept it are not harassed. I told you a few times about students who didn`t want to go to church with the class and nobody said a bad word about it. The same on other occasions - you don`t want, you don`t participate. E.g., Christmas Eve in our class. Some students share a wafer, others sit and wait. Has anyone been hurt?  Yes, we are religious but also tolerant.  I believe the same situation prevails in other schools which support religion. Polish teachers know how to remain moderate and balanced. PS. I would like a new law on teaching religion at school, though. I think 18 year old students should be allowed to choose if they want to attend the classes or not. My class have had some problems with the priest teacher recently, but it was personal, not religious. Friction also happens with other teachers. |
|
|
|
Post by valpomike on Feb 5, 2009 16:33:43 GMT 1
As far as school goes, it looks like, Poland has the best of both worlds. But many would never let this go on in the U.S.A.
Mike
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Feb 3, 2011 9:40:48 GMT 1
Maverick MP Janusz Palikot says that if there has to be a Roman Catholic cross hanging on the walls of the lower house of parliament (Sejm) then he wants the Star of David and the Orthodox cross hanging there, too.
In a move that will outrage his many conservative critics, Palikot is going to talk to the Sejm Speaker Grzegorz Schetyna about his latest idea.
“Why is there a symbol of only one religion in the parliament? In my opinion there should be none - but if I proposed to take the Catholic cross down, it would be seen as an attack on the Church,” the arch-secular Palikot told the TVN 24 news station.
The MP, who left the ruling Civic Platform to form his own, more socially liberal party last year, assures that he will not join the Democratic Left Alliance ahead of parliamentary elections in October, as had been speculated.
“My party will win anyway. I give people hope that the Polish political stage will change for better,” says Palikot.
Recent opinion polls show, however, that support for Palikot’s party is minimal and would not receive any seats in parliament.
|
|
;D 
