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Post by tufta on Jan 18, 2009 11:13:34 GMT 1
Tufta, After you called God a name, you would not reply, Why ? Did you not mean what you said ? Was this a error ? Mike I did not reply first of all because I missed your post. I can see it now, you wrote "Than you say, God is a maphroditie. You may go to hell for that. Mike". So, even when I see it, I don't feel I should necessarily reply to it. But if you feel so, I will. I didn't say God is maphrodite, since I don't know what is a maphrodite. I have said God is androgynic. It was of course a simplification, as I cannot know what is God in reality, I can only say how I imagine God in my primitive or simple, manly manner. I imagine God is not against such imaginations, as I do these in good faith. Also, when I quarrel with God, I do it in good faith, having faith. And when I sometimes doubt his existence in my faith, I do it in good faith. The outcome of all those doings of myself in relation to God, is that if I go to hell, I will agree. I repeat everyday 'may Your will not mine happen'. Lastly, I don't think even having faith in God is prerequisite to not going to hell. But that is another story and I feel we are now too far from what we're talking about. Coming back to the main subject. It was a simplification, but in my opinion a much better one than saying God is a man or a woman. In my imagination God is neither a woman nor a man. God is not androgyne either. Yet at the same time God is a man and a woman and God is androgyne, all three at once. And at the same time God is more than being a man and a woman and an androgyne all at once. Gender, not to mention even more superfical thing as sex, arre not able to define God. At least that is how I understand that, Mike. I hope I didn't make it all too complicated so in place of amking my point more clear I made it more obscure. If the latter happened, please excuse me. |
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Post by Bonobo on Jan 18, 2022 11:50:43 GMT 1
In other Christian churches it is normal for females to be priestesses. I see the RC Church`s resistance to change as the last stand of the crumbling patriarchat. Its days are counted and sooner or later catholic women will be allowed to enter priesthood, too. I am sure God will welcome this change with full understanding and acceptance coz in some aspects like forgiveness and love God is more female than male. Read this interview with a priestess in a protestant church. Amazing.    "People will see a female priest and stop going to church? It's absurd."
AGNIESZKA SZTYLER-TUROVSKY Oct 27, 21 10:51 AM
- "Hello Father Martha!" - this is how the SMS from dad started. Then another came, from a colleague from the Synod: "Juppi! I am happy, for the past, women can be priests!" That's how I found out. Only then did I believe, because I was sure that there would be no more than two or three votes - says Marta Zachraj-Mikołajczyk, a deacon from Wrocław. A week ago, Lutherans opted for the ordination of women. I talk to Marta about the Lutheran view of the role of women in the Church, marriage and living before marriage, abortions, divorces and how religion lessons can prepare children for the challenges of adult life.
A female priest in Poland? It is already possible in the Lutheran ChurchPhoto: Joanna Klisowska / Clio photography / Private archive of the interviewee
Marta Zachraj-Mikołajczyk, deacon from Wrocław
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There was complete silence in the church. And suddenly the old lady said: "What, you couldn't be a priest yet? I was sure you were here" - deacon Marta Zachraj-Mikołajczyk recalls the moment when, after Sunday service, she told parishioners that a woman in the Lutheran Church could become a priest
Until now, women could be catechists, lead pastoral care in parishes and celebrate services
- My husband laughs that if I pass the second church exam, which will authorize me to become the parish priest, we will draw lots at home that will run in the elections - laughs Marta Zachraj-Mikołajczyk
The vote went to the Synodal Women's Committee. - Many women from the Lutheran Church emigrated from Poland through the glass ceiling. Educated, sensitive, hard-working, ambitious women. But the Church is not only a pulpit - says deacon Marta Zachraj-Mikołajczyk
Agnieszka Sztyler-Turovsky: What was the reaction of your colleagues from the Church when it turned out that a woman in Poland could become a priest?
Marta Zachraj-Mikołajczyk, deacon from the Church of God's Providence in Wrocław: Squeak, cry of joy, tears of happiness (laughs). And disbelief. When I found out that there would be a vote, I was sure that it would not pass, that there would be two or three votes missing. When I found out that it worked, and I was sitting in the same place as now (we are talking on Skype, Marta from a Wroclaw apartment), I started checking on the internet, but there was no information, so I still doubted it ...
How did you find out?
Dad sent me an SMS: "Hello Father Martha!" (laughter). After a while, my friend, who, like my dad, is at the synod, so also voted, sent a message: "Juppi! I'm happy, by the way, women can be priests!" Then I believed. I was about to call my friend who is a deacon in Krakow, and at that moment the phone rang, it was her. "Did you hear ?!" - she exclaimed and we immediately started with other friends, also clergy, sending each other messages on the messenger.
Some girls said it was great, but is it for sure or what will it be like now, can we all, or maybe there will be some limitation, e.g. age or that those of us who are already deacons cannot and the like .
What did you tell them?
I said that the most important thing was that they introduced it, even if we don't get it, at least those young women who are now students of theology will have a choice. And it's great that this path for women is no longer closed. Because that's the most important thing.
Saturday night was very emotional, I think neither of us fell asleep quickly that night. On Sunday, I went from Wrocław to Kłodzko to conduct a service in the local church. It is a different parish than the one in Wrocław, because there are many elderly people in Kłodzko, and some of them come from the surrounding smaller towns and villages. So I was not sure how this community would receive this news of the female priesthood. I could barely hold out until the end of the service to finally say: "Hear! I have the last, perhaps the most important announcement for this Sunday. Women can be priests!"
So what, people applauded?
No! There was complete silence. Suddenly, an old lady interrupted her: "What is it, you couldn't do it yet? I was sure that you are already a priest!"
Oh, cool!
Yes, it turned out that, contrary to stereotypes, these older believers had no problem with this at all.
Years ago, I was doing the "Woman for a priest" campaign. I designed a doll that children can dress up in a policewoman's doctor's dress or a priest's cassock, so that when a female priest grows up, it would be as natural for them as, for example, a doctor. Because prof. Stefan Świeżawski, a theologian and friend of John Paul II, told me that only a grassroots movement could make another pope allow the priesthood of women, and that a change from above would make the faithful turn away from the Church, considering it a big revolution. I was collecting these Catholics signatures on a petition supporting the priesthood of women in the Catholic Church. I wanted to collect 100,000. signatures and send to the Vatican. Failed to...
I think it's absurd to fear that people will stop going to church because they will see a woman in the pulpit. Slovakia has had female priests since the 1970s. Today, in the Lutheran Church in Slovakia, the vast majority of priests are women, perhaps 70 percent. The ordination of a woman to the priesthood in 2010 was introduced by the Ethiopian Evangelical Church, Mekane Yesus. Of course, Germany, Sweden and Norway have had it for a long time ...
Scandinavia has long been equal, so it's no wonder. But it is sad that Polish women had the right to vote 100 years ago, as one of the first women in the world. And when it comes to the priesthood, we are lagging behind.
Most countries have a women's ordinance. Even African, Asian countries!
Has it ever happened that women from your Church emigrated from Poland because there was a glass ceiling in the Church and they dreamed of becoming priests?
Yes. Some women did not want to make concessions and become merely deacons. They felt a different calling. For me, it is a very brave and very difficult decision. Because it is a long road - it is not an ordinary emigration.
You need not only to be very good linguistically, but also to know the cultural context of a given country very well in order to be able to carry out a genuine pastoral service.
Won't they come back now?
It is difficult for me to speak for my friends. I think it will be a difficult decision for them. Because if you are already a clergyman, e.g. in Germany, you have your parish, you have worked for your position in this Church, and people know you, it is difficult to suddenly quit it all and return to Poland. Arrive at uncertain beginnings.
As a result, the Polish Lutheran Church lost many incredibly intelligent, educated, sensitive, hardworking and ambitious women with incredible knowledge and experience. These women were able to take care of various aspects of the ministry in the Church. Because the Church is not only a pulpit.
Marta in the parish of the Ascension of the Lord in Warsaw during her last service as a deacon of this parish. A week later she moved to Wrocław. She recalls that it was a very touching, moving service, because she left this place with a heavy heart. The parish on ul. Puławska will always have a special place in her heart.Photo: Private archive of the interviewee
Marta in the parish of the Ascension of the Lord in Warsaw during her last service as a deacon of this parish. A week later she moved to Wrocław. She recalls that it was a very touching, moving service, because she left this place with a heavy heart. The parish on ul. Puławska will always have a special place in her heart.
We need a lot of specialists. Not only exegetes for biblical commentaries, helpful in writing sermons. But also priests to work with young people, seniors, and the disabled. For example, I don't blink, so I won't miss a sermon, a deaf person is doomed to read it from a piece of paper.
The more people in the church, the easier the work and the easier it is to reach more needy people who do not know where to turn for help with their problems. Therefore, it is a pity that so many women have emigrated.
Have you ever thought about emigration?
There was a time in my life. Then I was thinking about going to Iceland. I once heard from one of my former superiors that women are not suitable for priests, that they are worse, that they will not be able to ...
Did you hear from the boss, that is from the priest?
Yes. From the priest. But fortunately, I never heard this from my parishioners. I also never had a situation where someone left the church because they saw a woman in the pulpit. Once a lady left, and then she came to me and said: "Ms. Martha, I didn't leave because you were in the pulpit, just because I felt bad."
Some people may think that women, once they are clergy in the Church, are in order to support male priests. It's sad. But when it comes to my cooperation with male priests, I meet with openness and a positive attitude.
It is optimistic that men in the Church have no problem with feminism. The common opinion is that they tend to establish patriarchy.
I was at a congress of women from Lutheran churches around the world, just on the 100th anniversary of Poland regaining independence. Around women from the United States, Germany, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia ...
I mentioned that 100 years ago Polish women had the right to vote. An American bishop approached me and said: "Don't let it take it from you. When something seems so natural, let it go, because we don't have to fight anymore, and then it's easy to lose it." It was a time of women's protests in Poland and the struggle for legal abortion.
How do Lutherans view abortion?
The Lutheran Church in Poland supports the protection of conceived life and is against "abortion on request", but leaves the right to decide to the parents and the medical council in the event of a threat to the mother's life.
I believe that in such a difficult decision, the Church should first of all understand the situation and show support. Abortion, whatever the cause, is not an easy and simple decision that leaves no trace.
And if a woman would give birth to a rape child or a sick child and put them up for adoption because she wouldn't feel up to raising them, that would be okay?
Yes, that would be okay. And in my ideal world, I would like a woman who is already making a decision about an abortion to have super clinics at her disposal and to be really cared for in them - not only medically, but also psychologically and pastorally, so that she would not go through this difficult time alone.
A fellow doctor from one of the hospitals in England said how he was surprised that in the same waiting room there were women who had come to have an abortion and those waiting for IVF. Then he discovered that it was intentionally arranged that way. So that women have the opportunity to talk to each other. Sometimes one of them decided not to terminate the pregnancy, became a surrogate, while others, facing a woman after many miscarriages, began to see their pregnancy in a different light, not as a curse.
Ideally, in such clinics where women go to have an abortion, in addition to a psychologist, there is also a social worker who is well versed in the possibilities of help and would say, for example: "Listen, you can have an abortion, but if you give birth to a child and raise it yourself, then you can go for help here and there and you will actually get help because it works. You are not alone. "
Because what a woman first seems to be terrible and impassable may not be so terrible if she is surrounded by people trained to help in such situations. Among them, there could also be trained clergymen, because a woman may need spiritual help at such a moment.
In Poland, giving birth to a disabled child is associated with a huge challenge. Apart from the fact that motherhood is associated with many changes in life, there is also a struggle. Constant and constant struggle for rehabilitation, for money for treatment or surgery ...
Exactly. Mothers of disabled children protested in the Sejm, but as we remember, they did not win that much.
And that's the saddest thing. In the Diocese of Wrocław, where I am now, the Evangelical Center for Diakonia and Education Fr. Martin Luther. There are orphanages, a school for disabled children with a boarding house, a retirement home ...
I look at children brought in wheelchairs by their parents or our buses and I know that these children hope for a better life. They get an education or a profession, and most of all they learn how to be independent. But it is one center for the entire city and district of Wrocław. A drop in the sea of needs.
Some time ago I heard that in one of the schools in Poland, parents did not agree that a boy with an autism spectrum should attend the class of their children. It's shocking. If adults react in this way, the children will take over from them this view of the world, because they are still at an age when mum and dad are the authority. If we adults teach our children to view the world in this way, to divide and lack empathy, how can we hope that the world will be a better place?
Today, at least for a moment, the world has become better, because women in your Church, it is a pity that not yet in the Catholic Church, have an open road to all ecclesiastical positions. Perhaps more women among priests will also make them more sensitive to the problems of children and mothers. What will be the next steps after the Synod vote in favor of women?
Some formal matters remain to be agreed, such as the payment of social security contributions or maternity leaves for female priests. Just different legal issues. Because when it comes to me and other deacons, women have been in the Lutheran Church for a long time, they performed various functions.
Many women since the 1990s, and maybe even earlier, I am not sure, had fought for the ordination of women to the presbyter (priest). Until October 2021, we had only one path of service - the deacon. From 2016, deacons in the Lutheran Church could celebrate two sacraments: baptism and the Lord's Supper. Back then it was a huge change for us.
This is someone who is more than an altar boy in the Catholic Church, almost a priest, but not entirely?
The deacon's ministry is an auxiliary service. Since women in the Lutheran Church became deacons, they could go out to the pulpit and lead the services of the Word of God. However, they could not administer the sacraments, especially Holy Communion. It was different with the sacrament of baptism, as in the Catholic Church, in emergency situations, it can be administered by any baptized person.
And when you came to the Church and stayed ... Oh, just as you say - you are ...
A deacon. Mrs. deacon. Some say "priest deacon". But I encourage my parishioners: "Just call me Marta or Mrs. Martha".
This nomenclature - "deacon", "priest", was never quite right for me. Because it creates distance and makes the other person withdraw into himself, make him shy or embarrassed. And I want people to talk to me freely as they talk to other people.
I am still myself, a person who sometimes makes mistakes, who may not be sure about something, does not always know the answer to every question. And people, having in front of them a priest or a deacon, expect infallibility and knowledge on any subject. And yet with today's pace of life, the flood of new information, no one is able to comprehend everything on the run ...
So how did you become a Lutheran and a deacon?
I come from Pielgrzymowice and my whole family is Lutheran. Grandmothers, grandparents, parents raised me in this faith. I attended Sunday schools in my native parish from an early age. My older cousin took me to my first nursery at the age of three, I persevered until the end, I liked it and I went.
And the fact that I became a deacon came naturally. In elementary school, when we got the assignment: "write who you will become in the future", I wrote that it was either a priest or a dentist or a flight attendant. Then it turned out that I am not the best in chemistry and that flight attendants do travel, but do not visit much, so I was left with theology (laughs).
In fact, she was always first. As a child, I was with my parents in Germany. In the church there, I saw a woman enter the pulpit. It was a shock! I thought, "Wow! A woman can be a priest! This is something!" It stayed with me for years. And finally it came true!
You've struggled a bit. We in the Catholic Church are still waiting ...
We waited and in 2016 the discussion about the role of women in the Church and their admission to the presbyter's service returned once again. It was no coincidence that the topic returned, because 2017 was approaching, i.e. the 500th anniversary of the Reformation initiated by Fr. Dr. Martin Luther. At that time, the synod did not vote for the ordination of women presbyter, but women were now able to administer the sacraments.
All of them?
All of them. We only have two in the Lutheran Church, so in practice they could baptize and give communion.
You don't have an anointing of the sick, for example, and marriage is not a sacrament?
No. In the Lutheran Church, we have two sacraments: baptism and the Lord's Supper. Those who were instituted by Jesus Christ. In the Lutheran Church, we believe that a sacrament is a holy rite, instituted by Jesus Christ himself, in which the invisible grace of God is imparted under visible signs.
That is why in our church it is so much easier in the event of a divorce, that when the divorce, unfortunately, occurs and the couple, for example, informs their parish that they have received a divorce, we note it in our documents.
And they don't have a closed path to the sacraments, can they still take communion?
Yes. That's right for me. Because who am I, as a clergyman, and above all as a human being (and every human being is a sinner), so that I would decide who has the right to receive the sacrament and who is not?
After all, I don't know what happened in this marriage. What was the reason for the breakup. I encountered a situation where the woman left her husband because he was beating her and the children. How could I not give such a woman Holy Communion? In my opinion, she made the right decision by divorcing. She saved herself and her children, thanks to which she can live normally and safely today.
Although, at the same time, I believe that in the Church we must try very hard and help people to make their marriages last.
In the Catholic Church, women only have the option of separating, but then she cannot marry again. There is also a declaration of nullity of the marriage. But the latter is an area for abuse - people, to get married in church with a new partner, look for hooks on their wife or husband to prove that their marriage was invalid, e.g. only because of pregnancy, under family pressure, or that someone was emotionally immature to the decision that he hid the addiction, etc. It's sad because sometimes people try to erase the whole shared past and deny that the relationship in which they were happy for the time they had children made any sense.
It is especially sad for me because of the children who see a parent looking for a hook on the other parent. When someone comes to me after a divorce, I ask him: "Also think about the beautiful moments you spent with this person. Think about her warmly. Remind yourself why you made such a decision. After all, there were also positive emotions at that time."
You know, people change, there are different situations in life. Sometimes, although, for example, there was no violence and betrayal, the couple simply does not go out and it does not make sense to look for hooks on the other person, or force someone to be with the other person.
Sometimes a wedding could actually be concluded rashly. If a couple, in order not to live in sin, got married under the influence of lust after only a few weeks or months of acquaintance, then they met only after the wedding and it could turn out that they do not match each other completely.
I have celebrated several weddings and had pre-wedding talks with couples. The first question I asked was, "Listen, why do you want to get married? Don't you prefer to live without getting married?"
Couples were shocked to say so. And I was explaining: "This is a very important decision. And you take the oath before yourself and before God, and not before those people who will be in the church." I remember when the couple came to the meeting before the wedding and finally choked out, embarrassed: "We already live together. And that's five years." And I was like: "That's good, you had a chance to get to know each other very well."
Were they shocked too?
Yes. I told them: "You know what will piss you off with each other. You know your flaws, that e.g. he throws socks and she leaves a million hairs on the bathtub. , and they can drive you crazy. It happens that then resentments, screams, quarrels begin. You are already prepared for your faults. "
What else do you tell couples before getting married?
I tell you how important communication is in a relationship. I ask a couple, for example: "How do you argue?". And I hear, for example: "When something annoys me, I send him an SMS". Then I ask: "How do you think he can receive this SMS?".
Well, he doesn't see the expression on his face, hears the tone of his voice, he'll just add the rest.
And he will find, for example, that what he got is offensive. I once read a book about Winston Churchill and I remembered the sentence that if you get angry with something, first light a cigar, sit down and distance yourself from this situation, and then react.
And I also advise couples: "If you get angry about something, go for a walk to cool down a bit. And during this walk, let each of you think about this situation separately. About your emotions, what really annoys you, about what you can work. And then go back to the conversation. " It's not worth shouting at yourself right away.
It is a pity that the school does not teach young people to communicate without violence, even verbally, without shouting.
It is sad, but these are precisely the gaps that the Church can fill. For example, in pre-wedding talks or at youth meetings, which we have in parishes. We do not always need to discuss Scriptural topics at such meetings.
In Poland, children already have religion in kindergarten, so in the final year of high school, people have a dozen or so years of this education behind them, and it turns out that they did not learn much of these lessons. I am glad how they remember parables and biblical stories and how they can relate them to their lives.
And in the Old Testament ones, God only waits to catch a man and punish him hard .
And even if we are discussing a parable in which God punishes, we can always relate it to a parable from the Gospel, where God already forgives man.
Then we see that our life is different today than it was in the Old Testament. But when I conduct meetings with young people, I assume that they may already be very tired of these biblical stories. So I try to invite various specialists.
Interesting people who can share their passions and knowledge with them. Like a psychologist talking about teen depression and how to deal with it, or how important rebellion is in our lives.
My husband invited physicists to a meeting for students. It was very interesting to see the world and the Bible through the eyes of physicists. Although, as some principles explained, I wanted to say, "Slower, slower! My last physics was in high school, so I stopped at Newton's Law II!" (laughter). The Church is for broadening horizons, for development.
For some of the faithful, a meeting with a female priest may also extend the horizon.
I know there are parishes that will not want a female priest. They are not ready for this yet. And I will not run for the parish priest in such a parish. I don't want to make anyone happy or hurt myself to prove to someone that they will regret not wanting me.
I prefer to go where people are open-minded and think, "Ok, we want to try with a woman. We are curious to see what it will be like!"
How will it be?
I don't know that, but I hope it will be okay. Maybe the parishioners will notice some difference (hopefully positive), but there are priests among men too. Each of them has a different character. Each of us is different. And this variety is interesting and beautiful.
When we go to the doctor, each of them is also different. It may or may not suit us as a human being.
Yes, there are stereotypes that a female priest will be like that, and a male priest will be different. This also applies to secular professions, such as journalists.
There is an automotive journalist in the parish of Ascension in Warsaw, where I used to serve. Then one of the few women in this industry. Great woman! Sometimes she heard from someone that she would not break through, that she would die in this environment because she was not a man.
It was a sexist assumption that a woman didn't know cars the way a man did. And on October 8, she received an award in the e-Mobility Media Awards for her eco-friendly podcast. But it also works the other way around. I wouldn't have a problem going to the barber guy and the gentleman to get my nails done (though I rarely go).
If a woman priest scares someone away from the Church, the question arises: why does this man go to church at all? Only for the man preaching from the pulpit?
After all, the point is to feel part of a community in the Church, to ponder and discuss the Word of God, to pray and to join the Lord's Table with others. And after receiving Holy Communion. feel inner peace and release from a certain ballast. I cannot imagine that communion at the hands of a male priest will be better, worse, or different than at the hands of a woman.
The first time I gave communion, one of the clergymen asked, "Do you know how to go with the cup?" I said yes. I heard: "Can you do it? It's difficult."
What, the cup weighs 50 kg ?! (laughter)
Exactly. I replied: "If I don't go, I won't learn." Sure, the stress was that I would, for example, spill the wine. The more that people going to communion, the faithful usually keep their heads down, so I have to "look" for the mouth. The second time I did very well.
You mentioned your husband that he is connected with the Church. He is a priest?
Yes. My husband is a priest, unfortunately (laughs). I really didn't want my husband to be a priest. I went to theology and did not expect to meet the love of my life there. Has become.
Do you work in one parish?
Now yes. For many years we were a couple who lived remotely. I lived in Warsaw and had my parish there, and Paweł was in Zielona Góra. We got married in 2019, but we kept commuting.
My boss at the time wanted to finish his doctorate and entrusted me with a parish for a few months. It was important to me, mainly because I felt his trust and faith that I would be able to cope, that I could work with people from this parish.
I wanted to take advantage of this opportunity, I decided that it might be the only chance in my life to run the parish on my own.
Of course, all important documents were signed by the diocesan bishop. But the deliberations of the parish council, meetings for future converts, talks about weddings, funerals, baptisms - everything was on my shoulders. But it was a great experience. We then met my husband once every month and a half. And it wasn't the best.
But you survived.
We survived. And it showed us that we can survive a lot, but also that we certainly do not want a repeat of the separation anymore.
Now my husband laughs that when I pass the second church exam, which will authorize me to run for the parish priest (I have the first one, but only allows me to become a vicar), we will draw lots at home who runs for a given parish. We can also go against each other (laughs).
And if you win and become a parish priest, your husband will be able to continue working with you, or, like in a typical corporation, it will not be advisable due to the direct service dependence?
At the moment, we do not have such a provision in our Church, so theoretically it could happen. But there are parishes only 20-30 or 50 km away from each other, today married couples commute to such a distance - each to their own work. It is overwhelming.
If you want to do something, you can, and if you don't want to do something, you will also find a reason why you can't. We'll see. As soon as I get approval for a second church exam and a chance to become a priest, I will definitely give it a try!
Write to the author: agnieszka.sztyler-turovsky@redakcjaonet.pl
Date Created: October 27, 2021 10:51
AGNIESZKA SZTYLER-TUROVSKY
Onet journalist, author of the book "Infectious Department. Stories without censorship"   |
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... until you have used the same type of argumentation as Bo does - 'my sex is better' ;D ;D I will now have to rethink it all again.... 
;D
