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Post by Bonobo on Apr 16, 2009 20:35:51 GMT 1
By partitions Poles understand the ones in 18 century - 1773, 1793, 1795. There were 3 partition zones: Russian, Austrian, Prussian. The end of partitions came in 1918.
A few random remarks on cultural differences which exist till today:
Poles in former Prussian partition are considered well-organized, diligent, accurate, dutiful, abiding to law. They learnt theses feaures from their German occupiers to avoid depolonization and save their identity.
Poles in Austrian zone were the poorest of all. Galicia poverty was proverbial. Peasants emigrated by tens of thousands. Till today farmers` fields in southern Poland are the smallest of all.
Southern Poland is a traditionally Catholic region which almost always voted anticommunist parties and politicians. It is different in central and eastern Poland, once under Russian partition, which often voted post-communist or socialist. It was best visible in 1990s.
A few kilometers to the north of Krakow there is a monument which marks the border between the Austrian partition with Krakow and Russian one with Warsaw. It seems that Krakowians are proud of being under the Austrian occupation which was the mildest of the three. Poles had a lot of rights in it, they could even be elected to the Austrian parliament, sth unthinkable in Russian or German zones.
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Post by tufta on Apr 18, 2009 9:53:51 GMT 1
Interesting matter you bring, Bo! I must say I have never given much thought to that, until now. There may be something in it, indeed. We would need some sociology paper to clarify our impressions and find some general trends ;D Just to add a few as random remarks. We should remember that the tradition of exceptional diligence and dutifulness in Wielkopolska and Poznań is older than partitions. Also the level of agriculture in Western Poland was higher than in Prussia. Finallly, only a narrow strip of land in todays Western Poland was actual 'Prussian partition' . Compare the map below (where blacj lines are partitions and red line is Poland's western border till 1945). Voting post-communist and socialist are two different attitudes. Major part of democratic anti-communism opposition voted socialist but never post-communist. My impression is the most pro-postcommunist voters were always in the regions won from Germany in WWII. Explained by high quantities of peasants waorking in State Agricultural Farms, which became helpless, abandoned and anxious about the free market after 1989. Interesting feature I didn't know is that Krakowians are proud about Austro-Hungary! It is really so different in Warsaw. And a side remark – from what you say this historical backgound seems to be still alive in Krakowians' attitutude, yes? And here is the map, It presents 2005 presidential elections results, orange represents Tusk, blue – the winner, President Kaczynski.. The black lines respresent the partitions, Prussian in the West, Russina in the East, Austro-Hungarian in the south. (Of course in the East some half of Poland is missing ,which was Russian partition as well). In the map suggests that old Russian partition and Austto-Hungarian parition vote alike, except the regions of Warsaw and other greater cities which voted liberal. Interesting is the island of liberal voters in the otherwise quite conservative Eastern part of Poland. Can yous see the island of orange next to Belarus border? This is the region with very high numbers of Belarusian minority. They are as conservative as their neighbours in adajacent counties, but sitll they prefered liberal Tusk. Generally the map very well demonstrates what is my impression too, the people in teh country and small towns vote conservative, in larger towns and cities, voye liberal. The exceptions are – people from villages in Western Poland which vote liberal as well. And people in towns in Southern and Eastern Poland which vote conservative.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 18, 2009 20:22:40 GMT 1
We should remember that the tradition of exceptional diligence and dutifulness in Wielkopolska and Poznań is older than partitions. Also the level of agriculture in Western Poland was higher than in Prussia. Hmm, I dodn`t know about it. How do you know? Nice map. Nice colours. Yes. It is funny and always makes me laugh but it`s true that Krakowians look down on other Poles, claiming that the Austrian partition was the most cultural, opposite to barbarian Russian or brutal German ones. Can you imagine that people in Warsaw hold any of Russian tsars in fond memory? Quite impossible ;D ;D ;D ;D And in małopolska region people still remember Franz Josef, Austrian emperor, as a good ruler. His image is displayed on certain articles, e.g., mineral water, to attract customers. ;D ;D ;D ;D Read Polish discussion about it: forum.historicus.pl/printview.php?t=2452&start=0&sid=9c0709c48c8d29b0ef7d8433b08de796Some major thesis: Yes, it is true that by economic standards Austrian partition was the poorest. Yet, political freedom which prevailed there was unthinkable in other zones. Poles could freely use the Polish language, even in the Austrian army, could set up their own organizations and develop universities, could even be elected to the Austrian parliament and then successfully join the government. Eventually, it was Galicia which generated the independence movement during WW1 (legions started their journey to independence in Krakow). It wasn`t by accident, Krakow inteligentsia had done a lot to maintain and develop the national awareness of Poles, e.g., in 1869 Krakovians opened the tomb of Casimir the Great at Wawel Castle and organised a symbolic funeral of the Polish king, a gigantic celebration it was. Peasants were taught patriotism, mainly by Polish priests. Poles from other partitions went to Krakow on historical trips. Read about it here: www.fortyck.pl/wiesci_inne_134.htmIt all turned upside down only recently. In 1990s preferences were different when leftist party was much stronger. E.g., those who supported PiS in 2007, had voted for post-communists in 1990s. Why? It seems that PiS won thanks to conservative voters in ex-Russian and Austrian zones, while PO won in the northwest thanks to those lost Poles from state farms who believed in Tusk`s second Ireland, and thanks to inhabitants of Poznań region who have had liberal, free market economy attitude. www.trystero.pl/archives/1048I founds 2 more maps: Partitions 2007 elections I have sth else for you. Railway map of today`s Poland: Dense network in west, nroth and south-west of Poland, much poorer in other parts. The same with roads przewodnik.onet.pl/_i/map/polska.gifAnd differences in our Eastern neighbour, Ukraine, are also very interesting. The Western Ukraine, once under Polish rule, voted pro-European Yuschenko. Eastern, southern and central Ukraine, under Russian control, voted pro-Russian Janukovych.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 18, 2009 23:16:47 GMT 1
Poles in Austrian zone were the poorest of all. Galicia poverty was proverbial. Peasants emigrated by tens of thousands. Till today farmers` fields in southern Poland are the smallest of all. Narrow strips of farmland in southern Poland. In the past, under Austrian partition, peasants divided their fields into smaller units to pay less land tax. Also, the country was overpopulated, and fathers bequethed portions of land onto their children, further dividing it into tiny strips. Fields in northern Poland.
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Post by tufta on Apr 21, 2009 18:40:21 GMT 1
We should remember that the tradition of exceptional diligence and dutifulness in Wielkopolska and Poznań is older than partitions. Also the level of agriculture in Western Poland was higher than in Prussia. Hmm, I dodn`t know about it. How do you know? ;D ;D ;D ;D Great question! When my kids ask me, daddy but how do you know? I tell them I've always read a lot of good books and still do, and I've always talked a lot with wise people and still do ;D ;D ;D ;D Yes the map is really great, it synthetisized many data - in one piece. Bo, Krakowians are right that they were in the most enlightened country of the time, in 'the best captivity ' of all three. Till now Krakow holds an intellectual and cultural weight by far exceeding its relative size. You are almost like a half of Warsaw culturally though so tiny in size ;D ;D What I understand - you bear lively emotional attitude to the phenomena 200 years old. Is it true or I misunderstood due to my English? Well, I remeber it another way. I would say the south-eastern Poland never voted very much for communists. But may be my memory is not that good already ;D Bo, my map provides these information in one piece. Wash and go! Well, thank you, but what's your point? I am of course aware of the economical and infrastructural differences between different parts of Poland, roughly East and West. They were already there before the partitions.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 21, 2009 22:15:03 GMT 1
Hmm, I dodn`t know about it. How do you know? ;D ;D ;D ;D Great question! When my kids ask me, daddy but how do you know? I tell them I've always read a lot of good books and still do, and I've always talked a lot with wise people and still do ;D ;D ;D ;D If I were your children, I would dare to doubt daddy... ;D ;D ;D Yes, one piece is good. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D By you do you mean me or all Krakowians? And what do you mean by lively in this context? Is it ambiguous or I misunderstood due to my Inglisch? Hardly ever. Yes, one piece. It is important. ;D ;D ;D ;D Still , some people prefer to have simpler presentations. I provide for their needs too. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D tufta, you are very self-centred, even more than me. Why do you think that the railway network map is only for you? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I thought we have been running a discussion for others to read and learn sth.....
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Post by tufta on Apr 22, 2009 11:49:58 GMT 1
;D ;D ;D ;D Great question! When my kids ask me, daddy but how do you know? I tell them I've always read a lot of good books and still do, and I've always talked a lot with wise people and still do ;D ;D ;D ;D If I were your children, I would dare to doubt daddy... ;D ;D ;D
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
Posts: 1,470
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Post by gigi on Apr 22, 2009 15:24:08 GMT 1
I don't wish to derail this conversation from Poland, but I just wanted to share with you that through my research of the history of Polish immigrants in Minnesota I have learned that of the initial settlers (1830s-1850s), it was primarily those from the Prussian controlled area that became farmers and those from the Austrian and Russian controlled areas who became wage laborers in cities and mines. That is very interesting to me, as it is not what I expected to learn.
I am working to learn more about peasant emancipation, as it appears to have deeply influenced Polish emigration.
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 9, 2009 19:47:08 GMT 1
2007 elections 2009 elections It seems PiS is in gradual retreat....
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 9, 2009 22:03:30 GMT 1
A few kilometers to the north of Krakow there is a monument which marks the border between the Austrian partition with Krakow and Russian one with Warsaw. about time you came off of that.. i knew it back them but you never did acknowledge it.. thanks.
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 9, 2009 22:08:01 GMT 1
to me this is the biggest part of the 'legacy' that will stick with PL forever, most likely: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katastersorry that the link is in polish but i don't know if there is an equivalent in english.
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Post by Bonobo on Jan 12, 2020 13:04:42 GMT 1
In 1863 Poles rose up against Russian oppressors in the Russian partition zone. Tne January Uprising ended with a disaster: thousands died, were executed or deported to Siberia and their property was confiscated. Also, the tsar punished cities and towns which openly supported the Rising and provided volunteers and supplies to fighting units. Such towns lost their municipal rights by the tsar decree and became villages which led to their economic and demographic collapse. Can you imagine that there are still such places in Poland? This year 4 villages have been granted the status of towns. All of them regained their rights after losing them in 19th century. Piątek, Lututów, Czerwińsk nad Wisłą, Klimontów en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi%C4%85tek,_%C5%81%C3%B3d%C5%BA_Voivodeship en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutut%C3%B3wen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czerwi%C5%84sk_nad_Wis%C5%82%C4%85Lututów Czerwińsk
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