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Post by Bonobo on Jun 18, 2009 22:31:32 GMT 1
The inhabitants of Jasło are in two minds about an old oak standing in the city center. They have just learnt it was offered to the German population of the town by Adolf Hitler in WW2 times. Some prefer to see it cut down, others defend the tree. www.tvn24.pl/-1,1605763,0,1,wyrok-na-dab--bo-fundowal-go-hitler,wiadomosc.html  A similar dispute has been running in Poland for over a decade. Should communist monuments stay or be removed. Some have remained untouched, some were removed, some were altered to present decent guys. What is your opinion? |
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 18, 2009 23:16:17 GMT 1
The inhabitants of Jasło are in two minds about an old oak standing in the city center. They have just learnt it was offered to the German population of the town by Adolf Hitler in WW2 times. Some prefer to see it cut down, others defend the tree. www.tvn24.pl/-1,1605763,0,1,wyrok-na-dab--bo-fundowal-go-hitler,wiadomosc.html A similar dispute has been running in Poland for over a decade. Should communist monuments stay or be removed. Some have remained untouched, some were removed, some were altered to present decent guys. What is your opinion? \ cut its top off and leave a tall stump..  |
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Post by jeanne on Jun 18, 2009 23:24:41 GMT 1
The tree is innocent...spare its life!
Monuments are something different. They are man-made to represent some ideal, etc.....I say ditch the communist monuments unless they have some incredible artistic value, which I very much doubt!
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Post by valpomike on Jun 18, 2009 23:49:40 GMT 1
Tear down the Culture Palace, in Warsaw, given by the Russians, also.
Mike
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 19, 2009 0:24:30 GMT 1
Tear down the Culture Palace, in Warsaw, given by the Russians, also. Mike absolutely not.. thank goodness they didn't. |
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 19, 2009 0:25:38 GMT 1
The tree is innocent...spare its life! Monuments are something different. They are man-made to represent some ideal, etc.....I say ditch the communist monuments unless they have some incredible artistic value, which I very much doubt! they all do besides that is part of the history.. at best they ought to be moved... never destroyed... never! |
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Post by tufta on Jun 19, 2009 8:15:40 GMT 1
The tree is innocent...spare its life! Monuments are something different. They are man-made to represent some ideal, etc.....I say ditch the communist monuments unless they have some incredible artistic value, which I very much doubt! I totally agree here. Most communistic monuments represent ideal based on untruth, and are just propaganda acts. No mercy for them. |
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 19, 2009 20:50:06 GMT 1
The tree is innocent...spare its life! Monuments are something different. They are man-made to represent some ideal, etc.....I say ditch the communist monuments unless they have some incredible artistic value, which I very much doubt! I totally agree here. Most communistic monuments represent ideal based on untruth, and are just propaganda acts. No mercy for them. What about monuments put in honour of killed workers in pre-war Poland?  |
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Post by tufta on Jun 19, 2009 20:55:23 GMT 1
I totally agree here. Most communistic monuments represent ideal based on untruth, and are just propaganda acts. No mercy for them. What about monuments put in honour of killed workers in pre-war Poland? In Warsaw we have a great monument in the cemetary of Soviet soldiers who kicked out the Germans and brought the Russian occupation to Poland. It is still there and being cared for. This young men (and women, and almost children) fough against the evil. They had no idea that their fight and death will be cynically turned into another evil. |
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Post by jeanne on Jun 19, 2009 21:35:33 GMT 1
What about monuments put in honour of killed workers in pre-war Poland? Sure keep it, why would anyone want to remove that one? We need more details...who killed the workers and why? |
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 19, 2009 22:05:33 GMT 1
What about monuments put in honour of killed workers in pre-war Poland? Sure keep it, why would anyone want to remove that one? We need more details...who killed the workers and why?  In 1936, workers, after the police brutally broke their sit-in strike, organized a demonstration near the Barbican. The police shot at them, 8 people died. |
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paulo
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Post by paulo on Jun 20, 2009 1:14:12 GMT 1
It is a fact of your history that Hitler planted the tree for Germans who were living in that part of Poland. Just put a plaque on it, stating that fact, and I do not think the Polish people will be propagandized (tricked) by it into thinking the German race is superior. People don't have to be protected from this kind of thing. On the contrary, they will see that Hitler was trying to encourage the Germans in Poland to take over Poland--that is a historical fact. Since it did not succeed, I do not see why the tree should be cut down.
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Post by jeanne on Jun 20, 2009 1:20:24 GMT 1
It is a fact of your history that Hitler planted the tree for Germans who were living in that part of Poland. Just put a plaque on it, stating that fact, and I do not think the Polish people will be propagandized (tricked) by it into thinking the German race is superior. People don't have to be protected from this kind of thing. On the contrary, they will see that Hitler was trying to encourage the Germans in Poland to take over Poland--that is a historical fact. Since it did not succeed, I do not see why the tree should be cut down. I agree, Paulo, and it can also serve as a reminder to the younger generation of Poles of that sad past that needs to not be repeated in the future. |
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 20, 2009 10:06:37 GMT 1
It is a fact of your history that Hitler planted the tree for Germans who were living in that part of Poland. Just put a plaque on it, stating that fact, and I do not think the Polish people will be propagandized (tricked) by it into thinking the German race is superior. People don't have to be protected from this kind of thing. On the contrary, they will see that Hitler was trying to encourage the Germans in Poland to take over Poland--that is a historical fact. Since it did not succeed, I do not see why the tree should be cut down. I agree. But I have sad news. The mayor of the town threatens to cut down the oak and even have it burnt in a giant public campfire. Once Nazis burnt books.   Today the mayor of a Polish town plans to burn a tree. www.nowiny24.pl/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=NW&Date=20081029&Category=REGION00&ArtNo=878336317&Ref=AR&border=0&MaxW=280 www.dziennik.pl/wydarzenia/article402109/Chca_puscic_z_dymem_dab_Hitlera.htmlInstead, she wants to plant a new tree devoted to victims of Katyń. Very patriotic.  PS. I have just checked it: the obsessed woman is from PiS. PS2. I had known it before checking. PS3. Why does practically all PiS members`behavior verge on insanity? PS4. Why do people allow to be duped by the possessed? PS5. Duped means wydupić. PS6. There is a saying: the nation has politicians who are the same as the nation. Are most people in Jasło morons? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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paulo
Just born
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Post by paulo on Jun 21, 2009 14:04:40 GMT 1
Wow! "The nation has politicians who are the same as the nation." In America we have often said, 'In a democracy you get the kind of leadership you deserve. Sadly, this is true. When the majority of the people become more evil, the "pool" from which politicians are drawn or taken becomes more murky and muddy.
Democracy is hard, without a godly people, it is impossible. That is why it is so important to encourage virtues in a nation...you can't FORCE people to be good, but one can encourage policies that encourage people to be good. It takes wisdom to do this. This wisdom is impossible if the law-makers are wicked. For instance, "The righteous is concerned for the cause of the poor, the wicked do not understand such concern." (Book of Proverbs) Now that is not saying, 'Give away a bunch of stuff to the poor!', but it also acknowledges that the poor have a hard life, often because they were just born in poverty and did nothing to impoverish themselves. So you do not favor the poor in justice, but neither are you uncaring for their life stories. You can help a poor person a lot better than the state can. So you want to encourage such virtue, as a lawmaker, because this will actually get the job done! Often in America, for instance, the state does not want to help the poor--it would eliminate bureaucratic jobs and destroy their voting base.
For instance, when Lyndon Baines Johnson started the Great War On Poverty in the 1960's (that was when state assistance for UNretired people started--which dictated that a woman could not get state assistance if a man was in the house--the State became "Daddy!*!") poverty was LESS THAN IT WAS IN 2008--before THE CRASH OF THE ECONOMY! At that point, we had thrown over 1 TRILLION DOLLARS AWAY ON THIS WAR THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT WANT TO WIN (Not Vietnam, but the 'War on Poverty'). So 1 Trillion dollars=More Poverty!??!!! I hope you guys do not make that mistake when you have some extra money laying around. Be careful, the politicians love to 'buy' votes this way!
Just an aside--a hundred years from now, I wonder how LBJ will be viewed by history. Losing the Vietnam War (fighting with one hand tied behind our back--and look how S. Vietnam fared after the war compared with S. Korea!), and creating more poverty while losing the 'War on Poverty'!!
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 21, 2009 21:16:53 GMT 1
You can help a poor person a lot better than the state can. What do you have in mind? Do you suggest that certain politicians prefer to preserve the poverty in order to play it for election purpose? The worse, the better? How is it possible? How was the money wasted? It wasn`t thrown into the ocean nor vanished into the thin air. Someone used it for someone`s benefit. |
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paulo
Just born
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Post by paulo on Jun 22, 2009 1:36:35 GMT 1
In America there used to be what was often called the "Community Chest." It was funded by private citizens and run by private citizens. People who needed help were given it, but they had to be accountable. What I mean is the administrators, usually volunteers, required them to work for it, seek work, etc. And they could discern much better than the state when someone was trying to swindle.
Much of the money that was wasted was spent on bureaucrats, wasteful practices: For instance, a person on "welfare" in America can go to the Emergency Room (the most expensive option in the U.S.) whenever he wants, get a 'free' taxi to go there, etc. They do not have to work at all to receive their 'free' money and food stamps and free health care and free housing...and this is just a partial list....There is no drug screening for welfare recipients (many use drugs); basically, we have encouraged bad behavior. Please tell me, you see where all the money can go in such a scenario? Did you not see a tremendous amount of waste in Communistic Poland's bureaucracy? Now just add to that the extravagant benefits (no long queues like many places, too) that the recipients receive, and you can see how the trillion went down the drain. Don't you know politicians use such benefits, at taxpayer expense, to buy votes?
Regarding what you called "impossible", I can only tell you I was listening to news on the radio, about a year-and-a-half ago, and they said we had just reached the trillion dollar mark on spending on the War on Poverty (should be called War For Poverty)--and that the percentage of people below the poverty line in America was now GREATER than it was when we started! I said this already, perhaps you do not believe me, but I've said it again, this thing I heard!
As to you whether or not politicians ever do what is bad for the people to keep themselves in power...Bonobo, you've got a lot to learn! Just for starters, look at the famine in Ukraine under Stalin. That is usually portrayed as a mistake, a good-intentioned plan that went awry. At the time these things happen, people cannot believe their government would do this on purpose, so they make excuses for them. Probably it is too frightening to think that those in power over us would choose to use that awesome power to our detriment. So we go into denial. But now, 50+ years after the fact, does any critical-thinking person dare be so naive? Some people still think it was a good-intentioned mistake, and you are always going to have people who have not learned critical thinking processes, but a critical thinker--I can't see how such a one would think it was merely a mistake. Then you would have to think all of Stalin's other atrocities were good-intentioned mistakes, too. In the light of history, you see the pattern. The best thing is to see it in present time, but most can't see it till much later.
But when you add up all Stalin's policies...indiscriminate arrests to help Siberian industry, blaming on Trotskyites, "wreckers", kulaks, etc. to cover up for Soviet failures and kill competitors for power. Indiscriminate and random use of terror: How can one think it "impossible" for leaders to seek their own good, rather than "the people's?"
It shouldn't be hard. People are born selfish. Most who say they are out for "the people's good," are lying. You and I both know it, just from common everyday experience in the world. Why would politicians be any different? In fact, they are usually worse, because they are actively seeking power and position more than a "regular' person is. They have to be skilled at subtlety.
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 22, 2009 8:40:37 GMT 1
And they could discern much better than the state when someone was trying to swindle. Yes, the state tends to overlook things. Neighbours don`t. Why can`t the authorities introduce it? Don`t they want? I thought drug problem has existed in US for so long that you have already learnt how to deal with it. Yes, I saw people queueing to get a free medical consultation from RAM: polandsite.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=627&page=3#12382You won`t see such pictures in Poland. I am not sure if Stalin and his totalitarian system is a good example here. I thought we are talking about democracies and politicians elected by people`s free choice. They must keep some moral standards because they won`t be elected next time. Stalin wasn`t elected and he felt he could do everything he desired with his peoples. |
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 22, 2009 9:33:19 GMT 1
Monuments are something different. They are man-made to represent some ideal, etc.....I say ditch the communist monuments unless they have some incredible artistic value, which I very much doubt! Bombastic Lenin monument erected in Nowa Huta in 1973 was pulled down in 1989 after violent demonstrations during which people tried to destroy it with steel ropes and finally burned it. Read more about it and see great photos: polandsite.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=polishhistory&action=display&thread=70&page=6#12844 |
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 22, 2009 17:15:50 GMT 1
how?
huh? that makes no sense.
your math is very fuzzy or something.
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Post by Bonobo on Jun 22, 2009 18:27:00 GMT 1
how?
Offer them a fishing rod instead of fish. Simple.
huh? that makes no sense.
Of course it does. The state officials prefer to preserve poverty to preserve their jobs - when there are no poor to help, civil servants will lose jobs.
your math is very fuzzy or something.
NO, it is all right. ;D ;D ;D Despite spending so much money, there is even more poverty in US. It is just a certain paradox, but it isn`t fuzzy maths. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 22, 2009 18:37:09 GMT 1
how?Offer them a fishing rod instead of fish. Simple. huh? that makes no sense.Of course it does. The state officials prefer to preserve poverty to preserve their jobs - when there are no poor to help, civil servants will lose jobs. your math is very fuzzy or something.NO, it is all right. ;D ;D ;D Despite spending so much money, there is even more poverty in US. It is just a certain paradox, but it isn`t fuzzy maths. ;D ;D ;D so keeping meaningless and wasteful position is a good thing? still makes no sense. yes, the math is fuzzy.. what was the population of the USA back in LBJ's day? that's where paolo got lost. besides the great trickle down economics of St. Ronny supposedly fixed all the problems, right? i mean, america is really prospering, am i wrong?  |
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Post by valpomike on Jun 22, 2009 19:52:03 GMT 1
Many Americans, Demos, that is, think we should give everything to the poor, who don't want to work for it, or do, and still receive, and this money must come from more tax, most of all the bad rich.
I just heard today, that Acorn wants to go and count the votes in Iran.
Mike
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Post by locopolaco on Jun 22, 2009 20:33:25 GMT 1
you're hearing things..
know no one that wants to do that. you like to twist things..
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Post by valpomike on Jun 23, 2009 2:00:58 GMT 1
Your leader does, and even free insurance for health. And many other dollars, to Acorn. He is a bad man.
Mike
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 3, 2009 20:21:34 GMT 1
Hitler's tree to meet the axe?
thenews.pl
21.06.2009
Local government in the town of Jaslo, south-eastern Poland want to fell and burn a 67 year-old oak tree that was planted in tribute to Adolf Hitler.
A sapling oak was brought to occupied Poland by the Nazis from Hitler's home town in Austria in 1942, to celebrate the German dictator's birthday.
The town mayor intends to plant a new tree on the same spot and dedicate it to the victims of the Katyn massacre, when Polish officers were murdered by Stalin's NKVD police in Soviet Russia in April 1940.
Some inhabitants of Jaslo are determined to protect the oak tree, however. They are led by Kazimierz Polak, one of the witnesses of the planting ceremony. It was Polak who brought this historical episode to light during a recent meeting of the local Town Lovers' Society. According to him, the tree was planted on 20 April, 1942, Hitler's 53rd birthday.
************ ********* ********* ******
Polish city ravaged by Nazis wants to cut down tree donated by Hitler; residents want it saved
MONIKA SCISLOWSKA
Associated Press writer
June 22, 2009
WARSAW, Poland (AP) — The towering tree is believed to have been Adolf Hitler's gift to the occupied town of Jaslo — planted to the sound of a Nazi band during World War II.
Town authorities now want it cut down and burned to make way for a new roundabout. But some residents have become attached to the 40-foot (12-meter) oak and are lobbying to save it.
"The tree has not hurt anyone and is not guilty of anything," protest organizer Kazimierz Polak said, adding that his group was appealing to local and regional authorities to preserve the tree. "It is growing healthy and tall. Let it grow."
But Mayor Maria Kurowska said it was a reminder of Jaslo's connection to Hitler, whose Nazi troops razed the town in late 1944 as the Soviet Army advanced.
"It's only a tree; we have hundreds of them here," Kurowska said. "Instead, I can plant trees in honor of Hitler's victims."
The tree also interferes with a planned roundabout that would increase road safety, she said, explaining why authorities were only now looking to have to removed.
But the mayor said she had received e-mails and letters from residents both for and against saving the oak.
Polak said he remembers the tiny tree arriving in April 1942 in a box wrapped in the Nazis' swastika flag. It was a gift from Hitler on his birthday and came from the Austrian city of Braunau am Inn, where the Nazi leader was born in 1889.
With two friends, Polak watched German authorities plant the tree with great pomp — part of an effort to "Germanize" the town, he said.
Two years later as the Red Army approached, the Nazis ordered that the town be evacuated and looted, according to historians. By the time they left, only 39 of the town's more than 1,200 houses remained.
Polak, now 81 years old, is the town's source for information about the tree's provenance. The mayor noted that he is active in studying Jaslo's history and there is no reason to doubt his account.
Nevertheless, she said she was not convicted the tree should be spared. The town will decide within weeks about the proposed roundabout.
"You plant trees in honor of truly great people, like John Paul II," she said. "If we keep it, we will walk in the city center remembering this is Hitler's tree."
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Post by valpomike on Jul 3, 2009 21:51:56 GMT 1
I think they should cut it up, take it all down, and then send back to the Germans. Show them we the Polish think.
Mike
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Post by jeanne on Jul 4, 2009 0:10:13 GMT 1
I think they should cut it up, take it all down, and then send back to the Germans. Show them we the Polish think. Mike The tree is innocent...long live the tree!! |
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 4, 2009 0:21:42 GMT 1
I think they should cut it up, take it all down, and then send back to the Germans. Show them we the Polish think. Mike The tree is innocent...long live the tree!! I am afraid the execution has already taken place.....  |
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paulo
Just born
Posts: 44
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Post by paulo on Jul 4, 2009 0:52:02 GMT 1
Well, I guess that solves that!
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