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Post by Bonobo on Jul 30, 2010 11:09:55 GMT 1
I think that differences in character and attitude to life have the biggest weight on the results. Germans can be so unPolish. ;D ;D ;D ;D
According to the recent Emnid poll, conducted between 21st and 23rd April,
of all the Germany's neighbours, Poland is the least liked by German citizens.
33% of people named Poland as the least liked (the second least liked neigbour
is the Czech Republic, but only 13% of Germans think so.)
Polish score among different age groups:
over 60 - 28% people dislike Poland
14 - 29 - 37%
40 - 49 - 41% (!!!)
Another interesting statistics: 56% of those who expressed their dislike towards Poland don't know ANY Polish person and 58% of them have never been to Poland 
The poll will be published in the August edition of "Reader's Digest".
wiadomosci.onet.pl/2201578,12,polska_najbardziej_nielubianym_sasiadem_niemiec,item.htmlMy commentary there: Germans still bear a grudge against Poles for successful resisting the German attempt to recapture and colonize Eastern Europe. After Germanic tribes were pushed westward by oncoming Slavic nations, including old Polish ones, Germans repeatedly tried to go back to these lost territories, verging on obsession. After many land shifts, with more than half of today`s Poland owned by Germany in the past, today the borders are the same as they were 1000 years ago. 10 century  Today  The truth is that Germans were contained by Slavic nations and their land expansion was stopped. That is what Germans can`t forgive Poles and what makes the poll results such as they are. Of course, Germans will never admit it openly, they cover their true feelings, maybe subconscious ones, and explain their dislike in terms of Polish mess, Polnische Wirtschaft, Polish car thieves etc etc. They will never say they dislike Poles for being a major obstacle to German expansionism. What do you think? |
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Post by tufta on Jul 30, 2010 12:28:08 GMT 1
33% of people named Poland as the least liked Bo, let's read it around (67% did not name Poland....) and move on |
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Post by tufta on Jul 30, 2010 12:29:42 GMT 1
I think that __occasionally___ your ideas are insightful and 'wide'.  ;D ;D |
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Post by jeanne on Jul 30, 2010 15:26:19 GMT 1
I never trust in the validity of polls.  |
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Post by Bonobo on Jul 30, 2010 19:48:58 GMT 1
I never trust in the validity of polls. In this case, it is true. Germans dislike Poles becasue we dared to reject their domination, cultural and other. Germans have always claimed, especially under Nazis, that they are culturally higher than Slavic nations. Poles don`t acknowledge the German superiority, making Germans feel unhappy about themselves. They start thinking: What is wrong with me? Why don`t Poles accept the German way and style of life? Why don`t Poles want to live under German rule? It is clear that you don`t like somebody who makes you unhappy. |
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Post by valpomike on Aug 6, 2010 0:51:24 GMT 1
And many Polish people don't like the Germans either. And who cares who the Germans like anyway.
Mike
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Post by Bonobo on Feb 3, 2019 3:04:41 GMT 1
In my first posts here I presented one reason for German dislike of Poles, which seemed the most important to me. Here are more, with the old one mentioned again at the beginning. Polls run in Germany regularly reveal that most Germans don`t like Poles. www.ijab.de/aktuell/newsticker/n/show/deutsch-polnisches-barometer-2018-deutsche-und-polen-gemeinsame-geschichte-spaltet-die-europaeischen-nachbarn/www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/1751244,1,polakow--lubi-tylko-jedna-trzecia-niemcow.read The following reasons come to my mind. Do you know any other? Reason 1 - Historical.Germans still bear a grudge against Poles for successful resisting the German attempt to recapture and colonize a part of Central Europe. Germans and Poles claimed the same territory and the result was the conflict which lasted, with intervals, since 972 till 1945. After many land shifts, with more than half of today`s Poland owned by Germans in the past, eventually Poles regained all disputed lands, even more than ever before. It is natural for a person to dislike their enemy with whom you wage a deadly war.
Reason 2 -Sociological.Germans are said to be disciplined, orderly, law abiding, consequent in what they do. Many Poles are said to be chaotic, messy, disorganised, inconsequent, rebellious. When these two opposing characters confront each other, there is little chance for understanding and liking. Reason 3 -Economical.Germans had long cherished the notion of the so called Polnische Wirtschaft, in the sense of a badly run business, with incompetent leadership, lousy planning and poor performance. de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polnische_Wirtschaft_(Stereotyp)Reason 4 -Psychological. (1)Germans have always believed that due to their outstanding character traits (mentioned above), they are superior to other nations, especially those which don`t possess these features. If one feels superior, it is natural to despise and dislike someone whom you deem inferior, in this case Poles.
Reason 5 - Psychological-Historical (2)Although Germans generally know little about the crimes their ancestors committed on ethnic Poles in occupied Poland, they did hear sth about it. Besides, Poles constantly return to these topics and demand compensation for material and human losses. You don`t like someone who doesn`t let you forget about past wrongs and even expects financial gratification. |
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Post by pjotr on Feb 3, 2019 3:38:59 GMT 1
Polls run in Germany regularly reveal that most Germans don`t like Poles. How about Poland? I remember some fierce anti-German and anti-Russian and anti-Jewish sentiments with some Poles when I visited Warsaw in August 2006. I had some difficulties with the fierceness of the hatred for Germans, Russians and jews by some Polish people I had contact with. Thank god there were other Poles in Warsaw and other parts of Polan who didn't share that fierce hatred and Endecja like Polish nationalism. I have nothing against Polish Patriotism, but do have some problems with that Polish ultra-nationalism, which connects "God, People and nation" in a sort of Polish 'Blut und Boden' (Blood and Soil, Krew i Ziemia) and "Meine ehre heist treue" ( "My honour is called loyalty"/(pol. "Moim honorem jest wierność") mentality.
My reaction to your following reasons:
That reason is historical accurate, because for 1 thousand years the Germans (Pruissians) had a 'Drang nach Osten' ("Drive for the East, parcie na wschód”), and found Poles in their way to expansion. The Teutanic knights were a great problem for the Poles and with sometimes large armies of Poles, Lithuanians, Tartars, Ukrainians, Czechs and Moldavians fought against the Prussian Teutonic Knights and their armies. The Battle of Grunwald of 15 July 1410 is an example of that. It was won by the Poles and Lithuanians.
The Polish partitions from 1772 until 1918 and the Germanisation attempts by the Prussians in that time caused the Polish uprisimgs and the climate of resistance and uprising. Many Poles aren't forgotten that the Germans wanted to destroy their language and culture and make them German in the Prussian state of that time. The same did Czarist Russia in the Eastern- and central part of Poland with their Russification policies.
This is a dangerous statement, because despite our difficulties we in Western-Europe see the qualities of discipline, order, law abiding citizens and functionaries, and in being consequent in what you do as positive. The only problem other West-Europeans have with Germans are that they are perceived as to strict, to less flexible, to serious and having a lack of sense of humor. (The latter is ofcourse untrue, because a People exists of many groups, subgroups and individuals -so there are Germans with a great ironcal sense of humor and a lot of Germans who don't have a sense of humor and take everything to seriously -in that they differ from the slightly more relaxed and easy going Poles and Dutch, who are less strict and disciplined in their behavior than the Germans -that aspect in the German culture comes from the Prussians and the Bavarian monarchy-). Being chaotic, messy, disorganised, inconsequent and rebellious are seen as negative elements in Western-Europe.
The Polnische Wirtschaft has gone and is replaced by newer Polish generations who delivered economists of the Warsaw School of Economics (Polish: Szkoła Główna Handlowa, SGH)> Today the new generations will not screw the Polish economy.
Poles and the Dutch don't like Germans saying and acting that they are Superior.
Germans are not different than other people, many Dutch people for instance know little about Dutch collaboration with the Nazi's during the war (how far that went) and about our colonial heritage.
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Post by Bonobo on Feb 3, 2019 12:47:20 GMT 1
Polls run in Germany regularly reveal that most Germans don`t like Poles. How about Poland? I remember some fierce anti-German and anti-Russian and anti-Jewish sentiments with some Poles when I visited Warsaw in August 2006. I had some difficulties with the fierceness of the hatred for Germans, Russians and jews by some Polish people I had contact with. Thank god there were other Poles in Warsaw and other parts of Polan who didn't share that fierce hatred and Endecja like Polish nationalism. I have nothing against Polish Patriotism, but do have some problems with that Polish ultra-nationalism, which connects "God, People and nation" in a sort of Polish ' Blut und Boden' ( Blood and Soil, Krew i Ziemia) and " Meine ehre heist treue" ( " My honour is called loyalty"/(pol. " Moim honorem jest wierność") mentality. Yes, nationalism, let alone ultra nationalism, are a nasty thing in any country. This forgetfulness of mine is killing me. When thinking what to write in the thread, I had planned to mention religion but eventually I forgot. Sorry. So, Reason 6 - ReligiousFirstly, when we talk about practiced religious beliefs, Poles are catholics, while most Germans admit to connections with protestantism by tradition. I suppose it may provoke a little distrust or slight suspicion when two denominations meet, let`s not forget that one of most destructive wars in Europe`s history had a religious context. Even more suspicion might be caused by differences in everyday religious life. While Poles still cling to the Church, take active part in religious ceremonies, etc, most Germans prefer not to be involved in such things. In result, they view Poles as very conservative and tradition-oriented, even on the verge of being sort of narrow-minded. |
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Post by Bonobo on Feb 3, 2019 12:51:45 GMT 1
Poles and the Dutch don't like Germans saying and actingf that they are Superior. Yes, and that makes a vicious circle because Germans don`t like Poles and Poles know about it and feel it, so they also dislike Germans for not liking Poles and so it goes round and round. |
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Post by pjotr on Feb 3, 2019 16:07:04 GMT 1
Poles and the Dutch don't like Germans saying and actingf that they are Superior. Yes, and that makes a vicious circle because Germans don`t like Poles and Poles know about it and feel it, so they also dislike Germans for not liking Poles and so it goes round and round. Bonobo, In general there are anti-Polish sentiments amongst some part of the German population and in the same time there are fierce anti-German sentiments amongst many Poles. But in the same time over here in Arnhem Polish and German expat students from the Erasmus exchange program are friends at the art academy, vocational university and conservatory. I went to Poland to Kraków with Dutch-, German- and Polish art students of the Arnhem art academy and they could get along fine. I even know a Polish family which daughter is maried to a German. This family is not Pro-German to put it mildly, and this German chap (despite the fact that he speaks, reads and writes Polish) will face some difficulties with anti-German sentiments in Poland. I think that Germans are more used to Germans with Polish names and Polish immigrants. Poles as fellow Europeans and Roman-Catholics will be less rejected and feared (xenophobia, racism, discrimination) than for instance Turks, North-African Bebers, Arabs, Kurds, Iranians, Afghans, Black Africans or other clear Muslim minorities. Only when Polish migrants are obnoxious, criminal, vandalistic, to alcoholic, to much concentrated in large groups of clearly Polish speaking and being a seperate people and cause traffick accidents, hinder German people and due to heavy language problems are to different from the Germans, than Poles will face rejection, hostility, anger and xenophobia. In general Bo, in the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, Western-Europe, Poles with their European look (blond, blue eyes, white skin, European clothes, or Brunette, dark haired or redhead) will not look that different than local/regional German or Dutch workers in Germany and the Netherlands. The hostility, xenophobia, racism and ethnocentrism is increasingly directed at visible non-European, non-white, non-christian, non Western secular-humanist, non-atheist 'outsiders' in the point of view of the righwtwing nationalist populists, and leftwing nationalist and leftwing Populist groups, Identitarians (Nativist people), some conservatives and even some christian democrats and social democratic Labour people. (Labour in Western-Europe has undergone some influence from rightwing populism -built on a rightwing nationalist base- and leftwing populism -built on a leftwing nationalist base-, and is slightly more conservative or centrist than in the past). The whole political spectrum is changing and moving from the centre (middle) to the righgt. Ofcourse that will soner or later lead to a leftwing or radical left reaction. That is simply looking at historical political curves. That is the principle of Communicating vessels. Communicating vessels is a system of containers filled with a homogeneous fluid, connected at the base and subjected to the same atmospheric pressure. When the liquid settles, it balances out to the same level in all of the containers regardless of their shape and volume. If additional liquid is added to one vessel, a new equal level will be established in all the connected vessels. This process is part of Stevin's Law and occurs because gravity and pressure are constant in each vessel (hydrostatic pressure). So if the rigthwing political climate and domination continues for a long time on the other side the left will be somewhere and regroup, reshape, reform, recover itself. The left was gone temporarily, but like Communicating vessels the left will return, because in true democracies and the democratic system you need 50% rightwing and 50% leftwing and not 75% rightwing or 75% leftwing for to long. The left 50% in Poland seemd to be vaporised, gone, but it probably went into other things like street opposition, culture, useless internal strive (left fighting left, like usual, instaid of joining forces against the right). The same thing over here. The left is so incredibly polarized and segregated in different movements, parties and groups, that the difference between some leftwing groups seems to be larger than between some leftwing groups and centrist and rightwing groups. In the Netherlands you have even a tradition of coalition governments of center left and center right political parties. West-Europeans, Central-Europeans, South-Europeans and North-Europeans have to forget the past for a moment and look at the present and future situation of Europe. Fact is that there were succesful political, financial, economical, trade, scientific, cultural, education joint ventures, cooperations and exchanges between Poland and Germany. Wikipedia writes about Polish-German relations German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki.German–Polish relations has been marked by an extensive and complicated history. From the 10th century onward, the Piast Kingdom of Poland established under Duke Mieszko I had close and chequered relations with the Holy Roman Empire. However, these relations were overshadowed by the centuries-long Polish–Teutonic Wars, as a result of which the Teutonic Duchy of Prussia became a fief of the Kingdom of Poland. Prussia retained a certain level of autonomy under Polish rule. Later, the Kingdom of Prussia rose and eventually became one of the partitioners of Poland in 1772–1795. In 1918, Poland regained its place on the map. After World War I, the Treaty of Versailles deprived Germany of its territories in West Prussia, East Upper Silesia and Danzig (Gdansk) and transferred them all to Poland. It was seen as a great injustice in the Weimar Republic, in part leading to the Nazi takeover of power in 1933. On 1 September 1939, Poland was invaded by Germany, thus initiating World War II. The Third Reich established concentration camps in German-occupied Poland, the biggest located in Auschwitz. Poland suffered many casualties and huge damages during the war. After World War II, Germany lost its former eastern territories to Poland and the Soviet Union. In 1945-1950, a series of expulsions and fleeings happened, in which up to 16 million ethnic Germans were forced to leave their homes in Poland and resettle in post-war Germany. It was the largest forced movement of any population in history.  Germans driven out of Polish Silesia to GermanyThe Cold War saw good relations between the communist states of People's Republic of Poland and the German Democratic Republic. Polish-West German relations, on the other hand, remained bad, although they improved after Chancellor Willy Brandt launched the Ostpolitik. In 1990, Germany reunified and it confirmed the Polish-German border on the Oder-Neisse line in a treaty. Both states are now European Union allies and partners, having an open border and being members of the European Single Market. The once bad relationship between Poland and Germany has now become a strategic partnership.
From the fall of Communism to accession (1989 - 2004) After the fall of communism, Poland and the reunited Germany have had a mostly positive but occasionally strained relationship due to some political issues. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Germany has been a proponent of Poland's participation in NATO and the European Union. During this time, some reparations from World War II were continued to be repaid to Poland and that money was distributed through the Foundation for Polish-German Reconciliation, a foundation supported by both governments. The Polish-German border is 467 km long. Following Accession to the European Union (2004– )German–Polish relations are sometimes strained when topics like World War II and the postwar forced expulsion of the German citizens from the territories assigned to Poland are brought up. Occasional xenophobic statements by conservative politicians on both sides, most notably Erika Steinbach and Jarosław Kaczyński, have slowed the improvement of the relations.  Erika Steinbach (born 25 July 1943) is a German conservative politician. She previously served as a member of the Bundestag from 1990 until 2017. Steinbach was president of the Federation of Expellees (German: Bund der Vertriebenen; BdV) from 1998 to 2014. Steinbach publicly endorsed the Alternative für Deutschland (AfD), though she did not become a member of the righwing populist party.On 24 September 2013 Lech Wałęsa suggested the creation of a political union between the Republic of Poland and the Federal Republic of Germany; his reason was that the borders in Europe don't matter anymore and in the future they will change anyway.  |
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Post by pjotr on Feb 3, 2019 17:32:15 GMT 1
Bo, I don't think that not most Germans admit to connections with protestantism by tradition, but rather 50% of them and than mainly in the Northern and Eastern parts of Germany. Protestants are present in other parts of Germany as well as minorities. I think like in the Netherlands Germany in the Christian sense is a mixed country of Protestants (Lutherans) and Roman-Catholics. Several of the most destructive wars in Europe`s history had a religious context. I think about the bloody 80 years war (1568–1648) between Spain and the Netherlands on Dutch and Belgian soil. That Eighty Years' War is also called the Dutch War of Independence. The 80 years war costed the lives of 100,000 Dutch people in the period 1568–1609. Part of it was a conflict between the Reformed Calvinist Northern Dutch (Belgium was still part of the Netherlands back then and Called Southern Netherlands and Southern Dutch) and the very puritanical orthodox, strict Orthodox Roman-Catholic Habsburg Spanish rulers. I also think about the vicious 30 years war (1618 and 1648) in Germany which resulted in 8,000,000 dead. An enormous amount for that time. During the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre (French: Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy) in 1572 during the French Wars of Religion thousands of French Protestants were massacred by Roman-Catholic mobs. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre#Death_toll ) The two largest Christian churches of Germany are the Roman Catholic Church and the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD), a Protestant confederation of United Protestant (Lutheran and Reformed) churches. The two churches together comprised 54% of the population in 2017, of whom 28.2% belonged to the Catholic Church and 26.1% to the Evangelical Church. In 2016, the Orthodox Church constituted ~2% of the population and other minor Christian churches (including Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, other Protestant denominations, and others), formed 1–1.5%. Christianity is the largest religion in Germany, comprising an estimated 57% of the country's population in 2017. The second largest religion in Germany is Islam, with around 4 million adherents in 2016 (5% of the population). Smaller religious groups include Buddhism (0.2%), Judaism (0.1%), Hinduism (0.1%) and others (0.4%). About 36–37% of the country's population are not affiliated with any church or religion. (Source: Wikipedia; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Germany ) And Encyclopedia Britannica writes that the Reformation initiated by Martin Luther in 1517 divided German Christians between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. The Peace of Augsburg (1555) introduced the principle that (with some exceptions) the inhabitants of each of Germany’s numerous territories should follow the religion of the ruler; thus, the south and west became mainly Roman Catholic, the north and east Protestant. Religious affiliation had great effect not only on subjective factors such as culture and personal attitudes but also on social and economic developments. For example, the willingness of Berlin to receive Calvinist religious refugees ( Huguenots) from Louis XIV’s France meant that by the end of the 17th century one-fifth of the city’s inhabitants were of French extraction. The Huguenots introduced numerous new branches of manufacture to the city and strongly influenced administration, the army, the advancement of science, education, and fashion. The Berlin dialect still employs many terms of French derivation.  The Poles ofcourse had to deal with the the northern and eastern Prussian Protestants, not with the Western North Rhine-Westphalians, the people of the Rhineland-Palatinate or the Southern Roman-Catholic Bavarians or people of the more mixed Baden-Württemberg. In the First and Second World War ofcourse the Poles had to deal with all sorts of Germans and Austrians, but before that they were mainly hindered by the Protestant Prussians or medieval Teutonic knights from the Prussian lands, the Roman-Catholic Austrian Habsburg empire and the Russian Czarist empire. Caused by differences in everyday religious life West-European in general differ from Central-Europeans and Eastern-Europeans who are more religious than the secular West-Europeans. While Poles still cling to the Church, take active part in religious ceremonies, etc, most Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Danes prefer not to be involved in such things. In result, the Dutch, Germans, Belgians, Danes and other secular West-Europeans view Poles as very conservative and tradition-oriented, even on the verge of being sort of narrow-minded. I went to a large meeting Bo a few weeks back with representatives of all religions and secular Humanist, Pagan European religions in Utrecht. There were representatives of the Roman-Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox christian churches, Orthodox and progressive rabbi's, Muslims, Hindu's, religious humanists, secular humanists, Bahai people and Buddhist present there. The Orthodox head rabbi of the Netherlands spoke about his concern about a growing intolerance of the secular 'majority' towards the religious minority in the Netherlands. In Poland the situation is different and both in Poland and Germany stereotypical thinking of 'the other exists'. Poles in Western-Europe are mainly seen as guestworkers. Leftwing Populists and rightwing Populists sometimes used the Poles as a scapegoat for things that are/were wrong with the economy, like unemployment, street crime and traffick accidents, because Poles were involved in it. |
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Post by Bonobo on Feb 10, 2019 10:16:47 GMT 1
Only when Polish migrants are obnoxious, criminal, vandalistic, to alcoholic, to much concentrated in large groups of clearly Polish speaking and being a seperate people and cause traffick accidents, hinder German people and due to heavy language problems are to different from the Germans, than Poles will face rejection, hostility, anger and xenophobia. In general Bo, in the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, Western-Europe, Poles with their European look (blond, blue eyes, white skin, European clothes, or Brunette, dark haired or redhead) will not look that different than local/regional German or Dutch workers in Germany and the Netherlands. The hostility, xenophobia, racism and ethnocentrism is increasingly directed at visible non-European, non-white, non-christian, non Western secular-humanist, non-atheist 'outsiders' in the point of view of the righwtwing nationalist populists, and leftwing nationalist and leftwing Populist groups, Identitarians (Nativist people), some conservatives and even some christian democrats and social democratic Labour people. (Labour in Western-Europe has undergone some influence from rightwing populism -built on a rightwing nationalist base- and leftwing populism -built on a leftwing nationalist base-, and is slightly more conservative or centrist than in the past). Yes, that is what I can read in other fora and blog sites. Generally, few Germans dislike Poles only for being Polish. Most Germans are indifferent or neutral. When they dislike sth in Poles, those are particular things, among others the ones you mentioned. But a typical post looks like this: Wolfgang
No, I do not see reasons why I should dislike Poland, I do have some Polish friends and colleagues who are all very nice persons. And I visited Poznan which is a nice and beautiful city. But I dislike statements of some Polish politicians who seem to be obsessed of the idea that Germany is hostile towards Poland together with a very conservative point of view which I do not share at all. On the other hand I can understand this obsession given the history we share...Finally, I think one cannot dislike a country ...That is why the title of the htread should be changed into: Why do some Germans dislike Poles? |
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Post by Bonobo on Feb 10, 2019 10:20:35 GMT 1
I don't think that not most Germans admit to connections with protestantism by tradition, but rather 50% of them and than mainly in the Northern and Eastern parts of Germany. Protestabts are present in other parts of Germany as well as minorities. I think like in the Netherlands Germany in the Christian sense is a mixed country of Protestants (Lutherans) and Roman-Catholics. Oh, good to know. I thought Luther was more influential on German soil. |
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Post by pjotr on Feb 11, 2019 16:22:32 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo, I sometimes have the dangerous habbit of thinking in boxes. That is the influence of Western-European sociology, psychology, history lessons, social class thinking (which is much more refined, subtle and perfectionist for instance in the Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia than for instance in the USA of UK, but not less devastating and discriminating. In my opinion that hidden, sophisticated, destinction goes very far). In the subtle, refined and sophisticated discrimination, racism, xenophobia and class 'racism' (Upper class [high class] looking down on the middle class, middle class looking down on working class and the native European [national] working class looking down on non-European and Central/Eastern-European migrant workers) exists in Western-Europe. It starts with the pressure of perfect skills of the national language, so that you sound like a local. next to that you have regional languages and dialects that are used to the National language. As foreign worker, expat, student, entrepreneur, scientist or artist you often have already difficulties with the Native Dutch language for instance, and next to that you have to deal with for instance in my region of Gelderland and city of Arnhem that over here in the Middle-Eastern Netherlands in the rural lands they speak a Low Saxon language (Low Saxon accent of Dutch) and that the Arnhem peoples dialect is a complicated mix of The Hague (workers who moved to Arnhem in the late 19th century and early 20th century) workers dialect, mixed with the old Arnhem dialect, merged with the Southern Soft-G and other language. If you consider Bo, that I with my Western (Holland) Dutch (General Dutch) as a native Dutch are already partly an (Import) alien over here, how difficult it could be for a Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian, Bulgarian or Czech guest worker, expat, student, scientist, partner of a Dutch man or wife, to live over here. Also considering that the West-European and West-Germanic (Franconian, Saxon and Frisian) culture, social system, customs, society and built up of the population is rather different than in Poland, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria or the Czech Republic.  Map of Franconian languages, regional languages and dialects.This refined racism is not any less worse than the openly blunt racism of Alt Right, KKK or Aryan Nation types in the USA, Britian First, or the NOP (Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski) in Poland and Jobbik in Hungary. Fact is Bonobo is that next to xenophobia, discrimination and racism against Poles (Polonophobia/anti-Polonism/anti-Polish sentiment) there are also a lot of native Dutch employers, middle class and even fellow workers who are quite positive about Polish workers. What do they say about Poles. These Dutch say that Poles are hard workers, disciplined workers, good workers (they do a good job), reliable (trustworthy), thorough, specialists in certain fields. Poles have some arts & craft skills that are lost in Western-Europe. Certain renovation techniques, due to the fact that old cities and Palaces were restored or rebuilt in Poland after the Second World War. For instance old Warsaw. And there is for instance a lack of truck mechanics in the Netherlands, and there were and are good Polish truck mechanics for instance. Next to that Poles are good agricultural workers, because Poland is a country of farmers, next to the Polish cities and Industries. And Poland has good construction workers, factory workers and etc. People from Southern-Africa, West-Africa, Central-Africa and Eastern-Africa, Suriname or the Dutch Antilles face difficulties, because they are black, people from Turkey face some difficulties because they are clearly non-Western-European Turks and Kurds, and most often Sunni Muslim. People from Morocco, Alegeria and Tunesia face anti-Arabism, Islamophobia, xenophobia and racism because they are Berbers or Arabs with a coloured look (not black, but often a brown skin, and clearly Berber/Arabic, most Dutch Moroccans are Berber people and not Arabs by the way). If you have people from Eastern-Europe who are clearly different due to their dark looks, slightly different clothes and different way of behaving (Romanians have a latin culture, and therefor maybe more Southern in their behaviour, they have that latin-Romance element that Italians, Spanish people, Portuguese and Southern-French people) they will raise some suspicion. For instance you have Bulgarian Turks that are guestworkers in the Netherlands and Romanians. You immediately see from their number plates (BG or RO) that they are not Dutch. The same counts of course for Poles, Czechs and Lithuanians (PL, CZ or LT), but due to their looks the Eastern-European Bulgarians and Romanians face more suspicion and hostility, from those Dutch or German people who vote for rightwing Nationalist Populist parties or jealous native Dutch or Native German workers, or Dutch or German people who fear that these people might be Gypsies (Sinti- or Roma). Yes, not only in Central- or Eastern-Europe Sinti- and Roma face discrimination, but also in Western-Europe. Like the Communists in the peoples republics the West-European governments don't like wondering people (Nomads) on their soil, and they often forced Gypsies and native Dutch travellers (Woonwagenbewoners) to live in stone (Brick) or concrete houses or apartments. Gypsies and native Dutch travellers feel very unhappy in in stone (Brick) or concrete houses or apartments, because they are nomadic people, who love to be free and not stick to a house. You are right Bo, that Martin Luther (1483 - 1546) was more influential on German soil in Northern-Germany and Eastern-Germany. The Prussian state that occupied Poland was a Protestant Lutheran state. However Southern-Germany (Bavaria, and some other German states) was more Roman-Catholic. For instance the power of the Bavarian conservative Christian-Democratic CSU (Christian Social Union) is largely based on the Roman-Catholic identity of Bavaria. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on Feb 12, 2019 22:18:10 GMT 1
Polls run in Germany regularly reveal that most Germans don`t like Poles. How about Poland? I remember some fierce anti-German and anti-Russian and anti-Jewish sentiments with some Poles when I visited Warsaw in August 2006. I had some difficulties with the fierceness of the hatred for Germans, Russians and jews by some Polish people I had contact with. Thank god there were other Poles in Warsaw and other parts of Polan who didn't share that fierce hatred and Endecja like Polish nationalism. I have nothing against Polish Patriotism, but do have some problems with that Polish ultra-nationalism, which connects "God, People and nation" in a sort of Polish ' Blut und Boden' ( Blood and Soil, Krew i Ziemia) and " Meine ehre heist treue" ( " My honour is called loyalty"/(pol. " Moim honorem jest wierność") mentality. Yes, nationalism, let alone ultra nationalism, are a nasty thing in any country. This forgetfulness of mine is killing me. When thinking what to write in the thread, I had planned to mention religion but eventually I forgot. Sorry. So, Reason 6 - ReligiousFirstly, when we talk about practiced religious beliefs, Poles are catholics, while most Germans admit to connections with protestantism by tradition. I suppose it may provoke a little distrust or slight suspicion when two denominations meet, let`s not forget that one of most destructive wars in Europe`s history had a religious context. Even more suspicion might be caused by differences in everyday religious life. While Poles still cling to the Church, take active part in religious ceremonies, etc, most Germans prefer not to be involved in such things. In result, they view Poles as very conservative and tradition-oriented, even on the verge of being sort of narrow-minded. Bo, There is nothing wrong about Poles being Roman-Catholics or these Germans who are connected to the German Lutheran Protestant faith of the followers of the Evangelical Church in Germany (German: Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, abbreviated EKD) That Poles are more religious than the more secular German, Dutch, French or Danish West-Europeans is not a problem either. Some West-Europeans look with some nostalgia, melancholia or home sickness to the more ' Old Fashionate', ' traditional' and clearly ' Roman-Catholic' Poland where Roman-Catholic churches are still christian churches with communities, in staid of Museums, apartment buildings in Gothic church style or in some instances mosques in the West. Of course there are still Roman-Catholic churches and Cathedrals in Western-Europe, but many churches have been demolished, or have become apartment buildings, exhibition halls, concert places, cultural centers or luxery office buildings in Gothic style. Some Europeans see Ultra-Nationalist and reactionary arch conservative Roman-Catholic Poles as narrow minded, but not all Poles. Mind you that many West-Europeans (Germans, Austrians, Danes, Swedes, Belgians, Dutch, French, British and Italian people) know various kinds of Poles. There are quite a few West-European men and women with Polish wives or husbands, girlfriends of boyfriends, friends, acquaintances, colleagues, neighbours and fellow students (at universities, vocational universities and colleges). Due to the existence of the European Union, Schengen region and the Erasmus Programme ( Eu Ropean Community Action Scheme for the Mobility of University Students), the European Union (EU) student exchange programme established in 1987. Poland today is very polarized, which is not so different than Western-Europe and the USA. The difference between Poland and Hungary one one side and Western-Europe on the other side is the fact that Poland and Hungary today have slightly different authorities, governments and parliaments than the Western-European authorities, governments and parliaments. The authorities (governments) of Poland and Hungary have a greater influence on the Rechtsstaat/b], Trias Politica (Separation of Powers), legal system, freedom of press, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of gathering, freedom of information (gathering), the education system, the intelligence community, National police and the army.
Cheers,
Pieter |
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;D ;D
