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Post by pjotr on Mar 4, 2013 17:41:04 GMT 1
Come on, all cities/countries in the world boast such photos. Poland isn`t unique. Poland isn't unique, but it is the country that captures my imagination for various reasons related to my heritage and its culture. Therefore, I appreciate these artistic photos of Poland much more than I would appreciate photos of another country.  Jeanne, My feelings and opinion and connection to Poland may be close to your one. Although we are different in our Polish Diaspora being. Understanding this appreciation of images of Poland is maybe better understandable for the Polonia outside Poland then for Poles themselves who live day after day in Polish cities and towns. My range maybe is slightly different due to the presence and living of my Polish family in more countries in the region than Poland alone. Due to their heritage in the Russian and Austrian empires who occupied Poland for so long, Baltic (Lithuanian, Estonian), Ukrainian, Russian and Czech influences played a part. It is true that I felt more at home in Krakow and Warsaw then Prague and Budapest, but in the same time I felt the shared Central-European heritage in these Czech and Hungarian capitals. We talked about the Kresy here. I would feel at home in Vilnius (Wilno), Hrodna (Grodno) and Lviv (Lwów) too, because they were Polish and have a Polish heritage and minority. I am not particulary fond of Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Belarussians, Germans and Russians, because of thew way they treated the Poles. Maybe the Poles didn't always treated the Ukrainians correctly, but I have Polish blood and not Ukrainian. As a person you have that tribal, peoples, clan and family thing. People happen to be loyal to their own ethnic, cultural, national, regional, local and often also social (class, milieu) group. That is deeply rooted in us. We remember what generations before us happened to our parents, our grandparents, great grandparents and often even great-great grandparents. And Europe can be quite complicated in ethnical, cultural and social class sense. For instance I had a lover, a girl who was half Dutch and half German. Her German mother was the daughter of German parents who were Heimatvertriebenen (Resetled German) from former Eastern-Germany or Western-Poland. They came from the city Stettin which became Szczecin. During discussions about that time I found out that these people, the German mother and the Dutch father of this girlfriend thought from the German perspective, while I was thinking from the Polish side. That gave some tensions from my side. These people were fine. Lost their propperty in the East-German part that became Poland, but had a good life in the North German city they stayed in Lübeck. Ofcourse it was difficult to have a clear, objective and neutral historical discussion. Everybody is subjective. Prague is dear to me, because also the brother of my Polish dziadek studied there in the early 20th century. Budapest is special due to the connection Poznan-Budapest 1956, and the historical ties between Poland and Hungary. Estonia is special only bacuse my grandfather (dziadek) and his father were born and raised there. If there wasn't that Polish family heritage there or connection, I would'nt feel that attracted to or connected to the Baltic states. But there are some Polish roots there (Bo has the same). The same with the American family. I am connected to them due to their Polishness. THeir mother left Poland first and after that her sister, my mother left Poland too. We are connected to the Polish soil, Polish country, Polish culture and Polish heritage, due to the graves of our Polish ancesters, their homes in Poland (other people live there now, but once, our ancesters lived there), the stories, tales and marks they left due to their presence, work, inheritange (possession's) and people wer probably don't know, but who are far relative. (and thus with whom we share bloodlines) What connects me most to Poland is the land, the country (territory) itself, to hear the living language (everywhere as the dominant, majority language, and not like the tiny minority, diaspora, Polonia, language, which we are used too), to see and experiance Polish culture, art and history. I love Polish museums, galleries, the old towns of Polish cities, their parks, riversides and periphery (the zone, the area's between the Polish cities, towns, villages and rural land. The space inbetween them, which shows history, the present and the future inn the same time). That quintessence is more visible in Poland, Prague or Budapest, then in Berlin, Amstrerdam or London. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by tufta on Mar 5, 2013 11:52:56 GMT 1
They came from the city Stettin .... they stayed in Lübeck. Sometimes life is ironic, though I do undersrand that the grandparents of yoru girlfriend may not have been happy about the way history treated German eastward expansionism. Both places they have lived in were once inhabited by Slavs. Lubeck or Lubeka is nothing else than... Bukowiec, a Slavic settlement.  halat.pl/slowianszczyzna_zachodnia_i_germania.pdfLook at the flag of Lubeck   |
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Post by pjotr on Mar 5, 2013 12:05:20 GMT 1
They came from the city Stettin .... they stayed in Lübeck. Sometimes life is ironic, though I do undersrand that the grandparents of yoru girlfriend may not have been happy about the way history treated German eastward expansionism. Both places they have lived in were once inhabited by Slavs. Lubeck or Lubeka is nothing else than... Bukowiec, a Slavic settlement. halat.pl/slowianszczyzna_zachodnia_i_germania.pdfLook at the flag of Lubeck These were not revengeful people, they simply were resettled and lived their life in Western-Germany. What is left of them is their dog, which lives with their daughter. The mother of my girlfriend. (Both people died, and their memories with them) The mother of my girlfriend was a West-German woman who became one of these thousands of German-Dutch, Dutch with a German heritage. Most people of mixed Dutch-German heritage feel 100% Dutch. They have German family, but they are Dutch. I think it is different from being half Polish, because Dutch and German are closer to eachother, but yet very different. Never, ever call a Dutchman or a Dane a German. That will be not appreciated. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on Mar 5, 2013 12:11:29 GMT 1
They came from the city Stettin .... they stayed in Lübeck. Sometimes life is ironic, though I do undersrand that the grandparents of yoru girlfriend may not have been happy about the way history treated German eastward expansionism. Both places they have lived in were once inhabited by Slavs. Lubeck or Lubeka is nothing else than... Bukowiec, a Slavic settlement. halat.pl/slowianszczyzna_zachodnia_i_germania.pdfLook at the flag of Lubeck I do believe you Tufta, so is the island of Rügen, the city Rostock in the north German state Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and probably other places too. In the 11th century Polabian Slavs founded a settlement at the Warnow river called Roztoc ( which means broadening of a river); the name Rostock is derived from that designation. The Danish king Valdemar I set the town aflame in 1161. Afterwards the place was settled by German traders. |
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Post by tufta on Mar 5, 2013 15:38:41 GMT 1
These were not revengeful people, they simply were resettled and lived their life in Western-Germany. What is left of them is their dog, which lives with their daughter. The mother of my girlfriend. (Both people died, and their memories with them) The mother of my girlfriend was a West-German woman who became one of these thousands of German-Dutch, Dutch with a German heritage. Most people of mixed Dutch-German heritage feel 100% Dutch. They have German family, but they are Dutch. I think it is different from being half Polish, because Dutch and German are closer to eachother, but yet very different. Never, ever call a Dutchman or a Dane a German. That will be not appreciated. Cheers, Pieter Pieter, revengeful people are very few and old. They try to disperse their hatred but generally they belong to the past. Let them live there, endlessly chewing over German defeat. They are better ignored and avoided. Let's look at the present times, what do you think?  Justr today German chancellor of Polish origin, together with Polish PM with Kashubian roots open a GRAND IT technology fair in Hannover  www.thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/129005,Merkel-and-Tusk-open-CeBIT-trade-fair-in-Hanover Btw - Polish PM is 'astonished' by the high level of Polish technology... poor, lost guy |
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Post by pjotr on Mar 5, 2013 20:37:37 GMT 1
Good news, this is how it should be. No stupid war rhetorics or border conflicts, but cooperation. Political cooperation, financial cooperation, economical cooperation, educational cooperation, scientific cooperation and thus technological cooperation.
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Post by jeanne on Mar 8, 2013 16:25:25 GMT 1
Jeanne, My feelings and opinion and connection to Poland may be close to your one. Although we are different in our Polish Diaspora being. Understanding this appreciation of images of Poland is maybe better understandable for the Polonia outside Poland then for Poles themselves who live day after day in Polish cities and towns. My range maybe is slightly different due to the presence and living of my Polish family in more countries in the region than Poland alone. Due to their heritage in the Russian and Austrian empires who occupied Poland for so long, Baltic (Lithuanian, Estonian), Ukrainian, Russian and Czech influences played a part. It is true that I felt more at home in Krakow and Warsaw then Prague and Budapest, but in the same time I felt the shared Central-European heritage in these Czech and Hungarian capitals. We talked about the Kresy here. I would feel at home in Vilnius (Wilno), Hrodna (Grodno) and Lviv (Lwów) too, because they were Polish and have a Polish heritage and minority. I am not particulary fond of Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Belarussians, Germans and Russians, because of thew way they treated the Poles. Maybe the Poles didn't always treated the Ukrainians correctly, but I have Polish blood and not Ukrainian. As a person you have that tribal, peoples, clan and family thing. People happen to be loyal to their own ethnic, cultural, national, regional, local and often also social (class, milieu) group. That is deeply rooted in us. We remember what generations before us happened to our parents, our grandparents, great grandparents and often even great-great grandparents. And Europe can be quite complicated in ethnical, cultural and social class sense. For instance I had a lover, a girl who was half Dutch and half German. Her German mother was the daughter of German parents who were Heimatvertriebenen (Resetled German) from former Eastern-Germany or Western-Poland. They came from the city Stettin which became Szczecin. During discussions about that time I found out that these people, the German mother and the Dutch father of this girlfriend thought from the German perspective, while I was thinking from the Polish side. That gave some tensions from my side. These people were fine. Lost their propperty in the East-German part that became Poland, but had a good life in the North German city they stayed in Lübeck. Ofcourse it was difficult to have a clear, objective and neutral historical discussion. Everybody is subjective. Prague is dear to me, because also the brother of my Polish dziadek studied there in the early 20th century. Budapest is special due to the connection Poznan-Budapest 1956, and the historical ties between Poland and Hungary. Estonia is special only bacuse my grandfather (dziadek) and his father were born and raised there. If there wasn't that Polish family heritage there or connection, I would'nt feel that attracted to or connected to the Baltic states. But there are some Polish roots there (Bo has the same). The same with the American family. I am connected to them due to their Polishness. THeir mother left Poland first and after that her sister, my mother left Poland too. We are connected to the Polish soil, Polish country, Polish culture and Polish heritage, due to the graves of our Polish ancesters, their homes in Poland (other people live there now, but once, our ancesters lived there), the stories, tales and marks they left due to their presence, work, inheritange (possession's) and people wer probably don't know, but who are far relative. (and thus with whom we share bloodlines) What connects me most to Poland is the land, the country (territory) itself, to hear the living language (everywhere as the dominant, majority language, and not like the tiny minority, diaspora, Polonia, language, which we are used too), to see and experiance Polish culture, art and history. I love Polish museums, galleries, the old towns of Polish cities, their parks, riversides and periphery (the zone, the area's between the Polish cities, towns, villages and rural land. The space inbetween them, which shows history, the present and the future inn the same time). That quintessence is more visible in Poland, Prague or Budapest, then in Berlin, Amstrerdam or London. Cheers, Pieter Pieter, Thanks for sharing these thoughts with us. Your family circumstances and history is interesting and I enjoy reading about it. Your experience and knowledge of Poland, its people, and Polish culture is much, much deeper than mine, so that is the reason I must make up for my lack of experience and knowledge with romantic fantasies! I continue to try and expand my understanding by visiting this forum and feasting my eyes on Bonobo's many educational and revealing photos. My family history prior to my Polish grandparents' immigration to the U.S. is foggy and limited to a few anecdotal stories. My Polish grandmother passed away here in the U.S.when my father was only 10 years old, so as a family we really have no details of her life prior to her immigration other than stories she told to her daughters (my 2 aunts who were older than my father) about carrying her shoes as she walked barefoot to church on Sunday to save the shoe leather! Now that my father and both my aunts have passed away, there is no further source of memories of her. After my own mother's death this past summer, while cleaning out her belongings, I found 3 pictures my father had kept of his mother which no one in the family (my cousins) knew existed. We plan on having the photos restored and duplicated. Details of my grandfather's life are a tiny bit more informational, as he lived into his 70's, dying in the late 1960's. He lived in a small town near Warsaw, where his father was a lawyer and also mayor of the town. There are stories of how my great-grandfather would take his horse and wagon out in the evenings to consult with his clients and he would often receive his payment in vodka. By the end of the evening he would be dozing in the wagon, and the horse would find the way home! When my grandfather was 16 years old the Russians came drafting young men for the Czar's army, so a plan was made for my grandfather to come to the U.S. to escape. He was smuggled out of Poland in a barrel, and made his way to (I assume) Germany to catch a ship to the U.S. We know that he ended up in Boston, and being on his own and knowing no one, a Polish family (my grandmother's family) took him in as a border and he ended up marrying their daughter! Other than these few stories, my only other connections to Polish culture and life are some recipes which my aunts had learned from their mother and which they passed along to my mother (of English and Scottish descent) so she could cook them for my father. My Polish grandparents and my father himself were more interested in becoming totally "American" in their life in the U.S. They were not so interested in preserving their Polish ways, so they did not talk much about them. Sadly, this has left a vacuum of knowledge that as their descendent, I would like to have. I have tried researching my ancestors, but haven't been committed enough to the effort to get serious about it. Perhaps one day I will pick up the trail again... Jeanne |
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Post by pjotr on Mar 10, 2013 0:21:33 GMT 1
Jeanne,
You're welcome. It is good to share our thoughts, backgrounds and our personal connection to Poland. My family circumstances and history connects me to Poland. I am glad it interested you and that you enjoyed reading about it. There are many interesting family histories. Some people want to talk about it others don't.
It is good that you are interested in Polish history, culture, society, people and facts. I enjoyed reading some of your conversations and exchanges with Bonobo. I also enjoy Bonobo's many educational and revealing photos. The historical, cultural, political, social and Polish things he posts. Next to that I enjoy and actually am fond of Tufta's contributions too. Because they reveal to me a sense of Polish experiance and Varsovian life, which in my mind connects to my own Polish (orginal Varsovian, later Poznanian) family. His stories, texts, youtubes, images and thoughts connects me as much to Poland as bo's images and travel stories of Poland. Both are important for my own research about Poland. And I love this Forum, because of it. I am active on another Polish Culture Forum too. The difference between this Forum and that Forum is that this Forum is more focussed on Poland, because Poles from Poland are more active here and (thank god) dominant. The other Forum is more dominated or inhabited by Polish-American and Non-Polish (Slovak-American, German, Pro-Russian/communist American) people. That Forum interests me, due to the Central-European and general (continental) European and North-American nature of it. But this Forum is so good, nice and important, because it is entirely dedicated to Polish culture, people, traditions, history and cities (with even different sections about Warsaw, Kraków, Poznań, Wrocław [Breslau] and Gdańsk. And that is great), Polish news and last but not least (as part of Polish culture) Polish old and contemporary fine art, literature and poetry, and the Polish peoples (Folk) culture and religious culture and heritage. (the architecture of Polish churches and cathedrals, monastries, and the rich Polish culture in general which is shaped and influenced greatly by Roman-Catholicism) What is good about this Forum too is that it breathes the Polish civilization and sophistication of the past, present and future. (in the modern and post-modern news and topics) It is important to live in the present, and to take the good elements of the past and know your history and roots. That's why we are here, I think. Both the diaspora (Polonia) people (we) and the Poles. (Tufta and Bo) It is very good that you search for your roots, your Polish heritage and your Polish family history in Poland.
The war stories of my Polish family and other Polish families are deeply tragic, sad and terrible. Lives were lost due to the nazi (1939-1944) and Sovjet (1939-1941) occupations. And because of that I came to understand the Polish feelings towards the Germans and Russians. It takes time to regain trust in these neighbours and you never know who you can trust. Certainly not the Russian authorities.
You tell the story of your Polish family immigration very clearly, eventhough you describe it as foggy. Most immgrant families have only a few anecdotal stories left, because most immigrants focus on the life in the new world and try to forget the past. Your grandparents and father wanted to be 'Americans' like many immigrants to the US with Central- and Eastern-European backgrounds.
I am sorry for your father that your Polish grandmother, his mother passed away when he was so young. I hope that your aunts, her daughters were able to tell you all you wanted to hear from them?
It strikes me that a lot of the European immigrants to the USA in the late 19th century and early 20th century were very poor people. The Poles, Russians and jews that fled poverty of the Slav countries to find a new future in the New continent, America.
Jeanne, I hope that you will find some tracks or evidence back to Poland of your families existance. The best way to connect or re-connect to Poland is like Tufta and Bonobo say, by travelling to Poland, visiting the places and meeting Polish people. It is good that you have found the images of your grandmother. I am sorry to hear about your mother's death past summer.
It is good that you have informations bout your grandfather's life in that small town near Warsaw. Older people ther might remember stories about your great grandfathers life as a lawyer and mayor of the town. Maybe they remember his son, your grandfather. That horse was a great help. I don't think your great grandmother was very happy with the situation!
Great story about how your grandfather escaped from the Czarist Russian army and immigrated to the USA. My grandfather became an officer in that army and he fought in the First World War.
Your grandfather was happy to find your grandmothers Polish family in Boston, and very lucky that he was able to marry their daughter!
It is so nice that your mother cooked those Polish recipes for your father. I understand that your Polish grandparents and your father himself wanted to be English speaking becoming Americans, becuase the Poland of their past was poverty and misery and the Poland of their present American life was a Poland of war and communism after that. Many Poles abroad considered Poland lost forever due to communism. They became Americans. Did your grandfather and father kept their polish sounding name or was their name Americanised, like so many European names of non Anglo-Saxon origin were Anglified, so to speak. Everyone wanted to become as American as possible, and non English names were often difficult for the English speaking Americans. So many Slav, German, Latin, Baltic, Hungarian and other names were modified or changed to more American sounding names. Kim Bassinger, Michelle Pfeiffer and Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger are exceptions on the rule, I think. In certain times Americans were not to fond of Central- and Eastern-European Slav, jewish and German immigrants. There even was a xenophobic and anti-Eastern-European and anti-German sentiment during the early 20th century. America was not an easy place for the new settlers/immigrants back then. It was dominated and ruled by White Anglo Saxon Protestants, who weren't fond of Roman-Catholics, Jews, blacks and other people that were different. That is what people forget nowadays with the sentimental 'American dream' story. Maybe that was part of the reasons that your grandparents wanted to be American as soon as possible and to forget their past. They escaped poverty and probably opression of the Polish culture and language in Czarist Russia (Poland was back then part of Czarist Russia, which wanted to eliminate the Polish language and culture and to russificate their part of Poland -like the Prussians wanted to Germanize their part of occupied Poland-.
I quote Wikipedia here:
One example of 19th century Russification was the replacement of the Ukrainian, Polish, Lithuanian, and Belarusian languages by Russian in those areas, which became part of the Russian Empire after the Partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It intensified after the 1831 uprising and, in particular, after the January Uprising of 1863.[5] In 1864, the Polish and Belarusian languages were banned in public places; in the 1880s, Polish was banned in schools and on school grounds and offices of Congress Poland. Research and teaching of the Polish language, history or of Catholicism were forbidden. Illiteracy rose as Poles refused to learn Russian. Students were beaten for resisting Russification. A Polish underground education network was formed, including the famous Flying University. According to Russian estimates, by 1901 one-third of the inhabitants in the Congress Kingdom was involved in clandestine education based on Polish national literature.
I hope you will find the time and courage some day to research your ancestors past and heritage thoroughly. You know the town where your grandfather and father lives. I hope you will pick up the trail again. I will to one day. First I am interested in present day Poland.
Cheers,
Pieter
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