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Post by Bonobo on Mar 10, 2008 20:15:36 GMT 1
Oh la la! Are those American men really so forgetful?? Or neglectful? They are neither forgetful or neglectful (most of the time), it's just that we do not celebrate Women's Day here! Jeanne, your post provoked this thread. When I was at a university, I remember how American and Polish American boys and men used to come to our English department and ask us to arrange meetings with Polish girls. The males were very serious - they didn`t want any one night standers, they were intent on meeting a right girl and taking her to the USA to get married. They kept repeating that they didn`t want to marry American females because they were too spoilt and had too big expectations and demands, mostly concerning finance. Can you tell me if they were right??? Are American women spolit and demanding?? It would be horrible.... I already pity those American boys hahahahaha |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 11, 2008 1:00:16 GMT 1
Of course to some extent this is true. There are American girls and women who are spoiled and demanding. These types are referred to as 'entitled'. They feel they are entitled to whatever they want and they should be denied nothing. HOWEVER, that is not to say that ALL American women suffer from this. Case in point is my own daughters. My oldest daughter and middle daughter (I have 3) are serious about living a simple lifestyle. They wish to divest themselves of 'things' and use only what is absolutely necessary. Many others in their social circles and age groups also adhere to this philosophy and there seems to be a growing awareness among the young that the material road is not the road to happiness. Advertising and the media, however, are dead set on convincing us otherwise and the young are bombarded by images of what they 'must' have to live a happy life. Sadly, many do pursue this folly.
It also may be noted that many American men also suffer from this sense of entitlement. They see wealth and material goods as a source of power and therefore those with the most 'things' are the most powerful. To some extent this is true as they can do what they want. Not all American women want this type of man.
Please remember that America is a vast country and what is portrayed in the media is only a partial truth.
I think that you saw American men seeking Polish women only because it is considered more acceptable for the man to do the pursuing. I believe there are many American women who would seek beyond the boundries of the US to meet a man if it were easier for them to do so and not be regarded as a less than virtuous woman.
Also an interesting note. My middle daughter (now 24) got married last summer to a wonderful young man who is a farmer. They are setting up an organic dairy farm. They love this life, but it is very hard and they have very little 'extras', in fact, none. Before my daughter met her husband, she went with a Polish young man who was attending college here. Part of what attracted her to him was a difference in attitude which set him apart from most of the American boys she was meeting. One reason the relationship did not last however, was that he started to desire the material aspects of American life and lost some of that appeal that had set him apart from Americans.
Hey, I thought one reason you left the old forum was that there was too much "American" discussion!
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livia
Just born
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Post by livia on Mar 11, 2008 9:05:50 GMT 1
Hey, I thought one reason you left the old forum was that there was too much "American" discussion! I enjoyed reading your description very much and may I ask for more on whatever American issue you'd like to comment on. Besides, your description of dual life way to choose from is valid for Polish society as well. People are so alike all around the globe ... |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 12, 2008 0:09:05 GMT 1
I enjoyed reading your description very much and may I ask for more on whatever American issue you'd like to comment on. Besides, your description of dual life way to choose from is valid for Polish society as well. People are so alike all around the globe ... Livia, I'm glad you enjoyed my ramblings! I am here, however, to learn about Poland, your specialty and Pawian's also. I'll be happy to comment on any American issue (except maybe politics - I hate discussing politics - it's too depressing) but you need to let me know what you would like my opinion on or what you are curious about! I don't want to randomly launch into a discussion of some American issue unless I know there is a particular interest on your part or on the part of other members.  Also, I liked your comment on the duel way of life applying to Polish society as well; it was nice to hear that. And, I heartily agree that people all over the world are so alike, and it is so true that we cannot generalize when commenting on a certain culture, race or nationality. |
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livia
Just born
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Post by livia on Mar 12, 2008 10:19:06 GMT 1
you need to let me know what you would like my opinion on or what you are curious about! Okey! ;D ;D ;D In Poland while a man and a woman walk together, say in the office corridor, and they approach the door it is the man who holds the door for a woman to pass. During my very short stay in the US I was on several occasions hit by the closing door while my (otherwise cultural and fine) American companion was already at the other side. Is it a norm in America - ""all care for themselves"" - or I was just unlucky? ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 12, 2008 11:36:13 GMT 1
Not all American women want this type of man.Please remember that America is a vast country and what is portrayed in the media is only a partial truth. Yes, of course. Yet there are certain popular stereotypes, enhanced by American films and those people who visit the USA and see life there. They suggest that American wives are overbearing high noses. I like to recall those guys. They were pleasant, agreeable, intelligent chaps, not some jocks or smart alecs, by no means. We talked a lot, some of them actually were our teachers, married to Polish girls already and settled in Poland. Applying the same measure to them would be not right. Each must be dealt with individually. I think there were several reasons for their seeking a wife in Poland. One was a desire to find a oncer, a woman who would be with the man for life, not some American bimbo who will backdoor them a week after the wedding. Polish girls, especially Catholic, were supposed to be more faithful and that was certainly true in 80s when I studied. The divorce rate in the society was low, about 10% then and we know that most divorces are a consequence of adultery. Today it has changed for worse. Another reason was probably an advantage that Americans had over Polish boys in finding a girl in Poland. Getting an American husband was like winning lottery in a communist country where average pay amounted to 30$ monthly. I am sure American men where well aware of it and they intended to impress girls with their nationality. Why that and not something else? Did they lack any impressive personality traits, so they prefered to rely on their nationality? I don`t know. It is also connected with character features they wanted to find. They probably looked for plain Janes, not women wearing pants in the marriage. Nasty materialist!! Instead of reciting romantic rhymes in the moonlight, he was blatantly daydreaming about a house with a pool! hahahaha This topic suits Polish context too. Polish girls involved here are not such a trifle! hahahaha But I think I will change my policy. I am curious about life in America and UK, so I am going to ask you a lot of questions. |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 12, 2008 11:47:25 GMT 1
I'm glad you enjoyed my ramblings! I am here, however, to learn about Poland, your specialty and Pawian's also. Yes, we know, it is our great responsibilty and we shall do our best to live up to these expectations. hahahaha Fair enough. I promise I will let you know when I expect your opinion, just like I did starting this thread. It was provocative enough, wasn`t it? hahahaha Yes, let`s skip American politics and weather. Everything else is of interest to us. It would be awful if people were alike everywhere. If you don`t like you own place, you should be able to find another one, more pleasant and matching your needs. If there is none, and you run into the same problems everywhere, it is a dead end street and one feels there is not hope whatsoever. Killing oneself in result is an obvious solution. |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 12, 2008 11:51:35 GMT 1
you need to let me know what you would like my opinion on or what you are curious about! Okey! ;D ;D ;D In Poland while a man and a woman walk together, say in the office corridor, and they approach the door it is the man who holds the door for a woman to pass. During my very short stay in the US I was on several occasions hit by the closing door while my (otherwise cultural and fine) American companion was already at the other side. Is it a norm in America - ""all care for themselves"" - or I was just unlucky? ;D ;D ;D Unfortunately, it is standard. That why American women are so pleasantly amazed after meeting courteous Plish guys who hold the dooors open for them, kiss their hands, say romantic verses in the moonlight etc. hahaha However, it is a fault of American women. They often don`t want any man to behave courteously, they consider it humiliating for their feminine dignity. They prefer to open the doors by themselves and prefer not to be looked upon as a weaker sex. Women liberation rules!!! hahahahaha |
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livia
Just born
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Post by livia on Mar 12, 2008 13:07:28 GMT 1
They prefer to open the doors by themselves and prefer not to be looked upon as a weaker sex. Women liberation rules!!! hahahahaha Very short-sighted and undiplomatic ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 12, 2008 21:55:57 GMT 1
you need to let me know what you would like my opinion on or what you are curious about! Okey! ;D ;D ;D In Poland while a man and a woman walk together, say in the office corridor, and they approach the door it is the man who holds the door for a woman to pass. During my very short stay in the US I was on several occasions hit by the closing door while my (otherwise cultural and fine) American companion was already at the other side. Is it a norm in America - ""all care for themselves"" - or I was just unlucky? ;D ;D ;D Livia, There are still a lot of American men who hold doors for women. This occurs mostly in social situations like a date, etc., even just around town, going into the bank, post office, etc. I think that it is most likely NOT to occur in a business situation, where a man would be afraid by holding a door that he was indicating his superiority to a woman. Pawian is right when he said that this is a result of the Women's Liberation movement in the 60' and 70's when women saw the inequality in men being paid more than women for doing the same work. They wished to put themselves on equal footing with the men and therefore opening their own doors, carrying their own bags, etc. became the norm and an indication of a 'liberated woman." Personally, I like doors held for me, but I also like to be paid equally! |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 12, 2008 22:02:07 GMT 1
But I think I will change my policy. I am curious about life in America and UK, so I am going to ask you a lot of questions. Fine with me, ask all you like, but you'll get a very slanted view from one person only! Perhaps Ola will join in. |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 12, 2008 22:09:12 GMT 1
It is also connected with character features they wanted to find. They probably looked for plain Janes, not women wearing pants in the marriage. Careful with those English phrases: 'plain Jane' means not glamorous, while one who wears the pants is bossy. Not necessarily the opposite of each other. |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 12, 2008 22:37:40 GMT 1
It is also connected with character features they wanted to find. They probably looked for plain Janes, not women wearing pants in the marriage. Careful with those English phrases: 'plain Jane' means not glamorous, while one who wears the pants is bossy. Not necessarily the opposite of each other. Well, I almost aimed at that. I thought that Plain Jane is a Polish grey mouse, a modest, unasuming woman. I used wearing pants in the perfectly deliberate manner. American boys looking for Polish wives wanted to find a modest gal instead of other types. Thanks for correction. hahahahaha Be my teacher! hahahaha |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 13, 2008 2:08:56 GMT 1
Well, I almost aimed at that. I thought that Plain Jane is a Polish grey mouse, a modest, unasuming woman. I used wearing pants in the perfectly deliberate manner. American boys looking for Polish wives wanted to find a modest gal instead of other types. Thanks for correction. hahahahaha Be my teacher! hahahaha I understood your use of 'wearing the pants' perfectly, so I knew 'plain Jane' didn't fit. And I'll bet some of those American men were looking for beautiful women (as well as modest ones)and knew the Polish girls' reputation for this characteristic! As far as being your teacher...just returning the favor. |
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livia
Just born
Posts: 121
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Post by livia on Mar 13, 2008 9:22:48 GMT 1
Personally, I like doors held for me, but I also like to be paid equally! Well said! ;D ;D ;D Jeanne, is the unequal pay a real problem in USA or is it rather a problem of the feminist movement so to say? In Poland I have never personally faced it. In fact I heard about it for the first time in the 'old good forum' while Jaga was complaining about it - and I am being paid by two institutions, exactly same amount as my male colleagues doing same job. |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 13, 2008 11:33:44 GMT 1
Personally, I like doors held for me, but I also like to be paid equally! Well said! ;D ;D ;D Jeanne, is the unequal pay a real problem in USA or is it rather a problem of the feminist movement so to say? In Poland I have never personally faced it. In fact I heard about it for the first time in the 'old good forum' while Jaga was complaining about it - and I am being paid by two institutions, exactly same amount as my male colleagues doing same job. Livia, Unequal pay was very prevalent in the 60's and 70's. I remember when I was in high school one of my male history teachers was complaining to our class that women teachers wanted to be paid the same as men, and he said that was unfair because men were the sole support of their families (back then far fewer women worked outside the home). I guess he felt women who were teaching were doing it to get some 'extra' income besides their husbands'. Also, when I graduated college in the early 70's and went to work, it happened to me. I worked in a private company and the boss believed the men should make more money. When a certain man in the office retired and I took over his work, PLUS continued with MY work load, I did get a raise, but still was not making near what the man had been. Things are much more equitable now. I work in the education field and the pay scale is based on level of education and length of service and never on gender. So the answer to your question is yes, it was a major problem, has improved greatly, but still does exist to some extent. Gender bias also existed related to hiring practices. Often men were chose over women because employers felt they would only eventually get pregnant and leave the job. Such discrimination is against the law now. |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 13, 2008 21:14:58 GMT 1
Differences in pay depending on gender is a hot topic.
Currently in Poland the law favours women - they can retire at the age of 60, while men have to work 5 years longer. It means that working men sponsor retired women for 5 years.
It is unfair.
Sorry, dear girls, but as long as there is such unequality, I agree that women should get less money than men.
Besides, you seem to skip the issue of pregnancy, during which a woman takes a maternal leave for some longer time and she is paid by the state and to my knowlegde, also private employers are obliged to pay her.
Isn`t it natural that this maternal money is deducted from women`s monthly pay?
Correct me if I am wrong.
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livia
Just born
Posts: 121
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Post by livia on Mar 13, 2008 23:31:37 GMT 1
Correct me if I am wrong. Before I correct you, you must prove you're serious here  |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 14, 2008 0:11:09 GMT 1
Correct me if I am wrong. Before I correct you, you must prove you're serious here hahahahaha Hmm, suppose I am bit provocative here. but what about above mentioned equality? Women get the same salary and retire at the same age. |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 14, 2008 1:23:06 GMT 1
Before I correct you, you must prove you're serious here hahahahaha Hmm, suppose I am bit provocative here. but what about above mentioned equality? Women get the same salary and retire at the same age. As long as you are being provocative, I will respond provocatively. The earlier retirement age for Polish women is their reward for putting up with men all their lives! ;D ;D |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 14, 2008 6:08:38 GMT 1
hahahahaha Hmm, suppose I am bit provocative here. but what about above mentioned equality? Women get the same salary and retire at the same age. As long as you are being provocative, I will respond provocatively. The earlier retirement age for Polish women is their reward for putting up with men all their lives! ;D ;D But is is men who die earlier than women, on average they live shorter by about 8 years. It is connected with the stress of having to put up with the other sex. It makes men happier when they are distinguished with higher salaries, and that`s the way it should be. |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 14, 2008 11:31:13 GMT 1
As long as you are being provocative, I will respond provocatively. The earlier retirement age for Polish women is their reward for putting up with men all their lives! ;D ;D But is is men who die earlier than women, on average they live shorter by about 8 years. It is connected with the stress of having to put up with the other sex. It makes men happier when they are distinguished with higher salaries, and that`s the way it should be. My, now we are getting very provocative! Of course men do not die earlier from the stress living with women. It is because men are more likely to run down their bodies with smoking, drinking and carousing! It's been shown through scientific research that married men live longer than single men because women take care of them! ;D |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 14, 2008 21:54:51 GMT 1
My, now we are getting very provocative! Of course men do not die earlier from the stress living with women. It is because men are more likely to run down their bodies with smoking, drinking and carousing! It's been shown through scientific research that married men live longer than single men because women take care of them! ;D Hmm, it can be true with those single men. I got married when I was 30. Now, at 40 and married, I am still alive. Marriage works wonders, really. hahahahaha |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 16, 2008 20:37:48 GMT 1
Of course to some extent this is true. There are American girls and women who are spoiled and demanding. These types are referred to as 'entitled'. They feel they are entitled to whatever they want and they should be denied nothing. HOWEVER, that is not to say that ALL American women suffer from this. Please remember that America is a vast country and what is portrayed in the media is only a partial truth. Yes, I agree. American women are different. So are Polish women. Not all are pleasant, good-natured and agreeable. I pity my brother in law who married a hag who beats him from time to time and pulls his hair out. She doesn`t allow him to have the food that her parents give them. She catches at every opportunity to argue with him and prove she is right. She bore a child a year ago and since then they haven`t had sex. But it was his choice and his fault. He knew what he was doing because they had been going out for a year or so. Met on the Internet, btw. They had already been arguing before marriage, fighting for domination. They are both strong independent types. She is lucky that she married such a patient man. |
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Post by valpomike on Mar 16, 2008 21:30:17 GMT 1
She is lucky to marry any man. He, your brother makes her what she is today.
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 16, 2008 22:13:21 GMT 1
She is lucky to marry any man. He, your brother makes her what she is today. I think for a while he also thought he was lucky. His problem used to be obesity and resulting inferiority complex. Being too heavy is still not so common in Poland, unlike the USA. Obese people stand out in the society a bit and they realise it. |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 16, 2008 23:20:45 GMT 1
His problem used to be obesity and resulting inferiority complex. You said his problem 'used to be obesity.' Does this mean he is no longer obese? If he still is maybe that is why his wife won't share the food she gets from her parents! |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 17, 2008 21:27:43 GMT 1
His problem used to be obesity and resulting inferiority complex. You said his problem 'used to be obesity.' Does this mean he is no longer obese? If he still is maybe that is why his wife won't share the food she gets from her parents! He used to be obese in the sense it was really conspicuous, and my kids, when younger, could freely rest on his belly like on a platform when he was standing upright. Today he is just a bit overweight, which you can see in the photos of family reunions. Not sharing food is a result of her malice and venomous nature, not anything else. |
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