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Post by pjotr on May 25, 2011 17:14:34 GMT 1
Paul Celan - Deathfugue
Black milk of daybreak we drink it at evening
we drink it at midday and morning we drink it at night
we drink and we drink
we shovel a grave in the air there you won't lie too cramped
A man lives in the house he plays with his vipers he writes
he writes when it grows dark to Deutschland your golden hair Margareta
he writes it and steps out of doors and the stars are all sparkling, he whistles his hounds to come close
he whistles his Jews into rows has them shovel a grave in the ground
he commands us to play up for the dance.
Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at morning and midday we drink you at evening
we drink and we drink
A man lives in the house he plays with his vipers he writes
he writes when it grows dark to Deutschland your golden hair Margareta
Your ashen hair Shulamith we shovel a grave in the air there you won't lie too cramped
He shouts jab the earth deeper you lot there you others sing up and play
he grabs for the rod in his belt he swings it his eyes are so blue
jab your spades deeper you lot there you others play on for the dancing
Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at midday and morning we drink you at evening
we drink and we drink
a man lives in the house your goldenes Haar Margareta
your aschenes Haar Shulamith he plays his vipers
He shouts play death more sweetly this Death is a master from Deutschland
he shouts scrape your strings darker you'll rise then as smoke to the sky
you'll have a grave then in the clouds there you won't lie too cramped
Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at midday Death is a master aus Deutschland
we drink you at evening and morning we drink and we drink
this Death is ein Meister aus Deutschland his eye it is blue
he shoots you with shot made of lead shoots you level and true
a man lives in the house your goldenes Haar Margarete
he looses his hounds on us grants us a grave in the air
he plays with his vipers and daydreams der Tod ist ein Meister aus Deutschland
dein goldenes Haar Margarete
dein aschenes Haar Shulamith
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Post by pjotr on May 25, 2011 17:15:49 GMT 1
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Post by Bonobo on May 25, 2011 21:01:42 GMT 1
[/i][/quote] Fascinating poem but extremely depressing.
Paul Celan (23 November 1920, Cernãuþi, Bukovina, Kingdom of Romania, current Chernivtsi, Ukraine - c. 20 April 1970, Paris) was a poet and translator. He was born as Paul Antschel into a Jewish family in Romania, and changed his name to "Paul Celan" (where Celan in Romanian would be pronounced Chelan, and was derived from Ancel, pronounced Antshel), [1] becoming one of the major German-language poets of the post-World War II era.
His most famous poem, the early Todesfuge, commemorating the death camps, is a work of great complexity and extraordinary power, and may have drawn some key motives[11] from the poem Er[12] by Immanuel Weissglas, another Czernovitz poet. The dual character of Margarete-Sulamith, with her golden-ashen hair, appears as a reflection of Celan's Jewish-German culture,[11] while the blue-eyed "Master from Germany" embodies German Nazism.
Peter, one observation by a Pole. ;D ;D ;D ;D The German language sounds horrible in that poem. It brings up the worst associations with Nazis etc. I know the poet is Jewish but I can`t help feeling uneasy about the sound and this unusual intonation which is rising in each sentence, no matter if it is affirmative, negative or a question, reminds me of Hitler`s histerical speeches at Nazi party meetings. ;D Just my private remark and don`t pay attention to it, of course. ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by pjotr on May 26, 2011 1:07:57 GMT 1
This is one of the poems of the world poetry which touches me the most, because it shows that poetry is possible after Auschwitz, because there was a discussion if after the Holocaust poetry and art were possible. In my view Celan shows in this poem the reality of the Holocaust, and shows the Suspect and the Victim in one poem. It is a dark, sinister and heavy poem and it is a sort of Elegy. A few years back in a art salon in a bourgeois house in Arnhem I saw a black haired actess with dramatic eyes, performing this poem, and it made a deep impression on me.  Photo PieterI don't hear Hitler in the poem, because he was in Berchtesgaden or Berlin, I hear Auschwitz, Treblinka, Maidenec, Sobibor, Chełmno, Bergen Belsen, Dachau, Mauthausen, Sachsenhausen, Neuengamme, Ravensbrück, Bełżec, Buchenwald, Vught, Amersfoort and Westerbork in this poem. |
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Post by tufta on May 26, 2011 20:52:12 GMT 1
''I can`t help feeling uneasy about the sound and this unusual intonation which is rising in each sentence, no matter if it is affirmative, negative or a question,''
This is an excellent observation, Bo. I didn't know what was going on - I knew what this poem is about, but anyway I felt.... uneasy, exactly as you say, and didn't know why - while you have caught it perfectly why.
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Post by Bonobo on May 27, 2011 11:41:29 GMT 1
' This is an excellent observation, Bo. I didn't know what was going on - I knew what this poem is about, but anyway I felt.... uneasy, exactly as you say, and didn't know why - while you have caught it perfectly why. Now I remembered where else I heard it - Churchill in his famous blood, sweat and tears speech also used some of this intonation and I always considered it amusingly strange. |
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Post by pjotr on May 27, 2011 16:28:19 GMT 1
Guys,
Maybe it is because I am Dutch, which language is very close to German, and often (in my view) more harsh then German even. I find German more attractive than Dutch. In the same time I consider the West-Germanic languages not as beautiful, esthetic, or pleasent sounding languages. The latin, slav and some other languages are better digestible. It is because it is my daily language, my pragmatic tool and communication mean I forget about the sound, form and content, because it is an automatic use and it is part of your identity and culture. German in that sense is very close to Dutch and Scandinavian (Danish) (Even more than Dutch and Danish people like to hear or want to admid). It sounds tough, sometimes harsh, sometimes arrogant. The way of performing of Paul Celan, a monotomous, breath taking (in the negative sense) and capturing way.
The poem is unpleasent, uneasy and annoying and is ment to be so. Because it is an Elegy, a confrontation with the past, "Der Tod ist ein Meister aus Deutschland
dein goldenes Haar Margarete, dein aschenes Haar Shulamith".
The German, Austrian and Dutch language poetic tradition is differant from the old Polish, Russian, Czech (Bohemian) and other West-Slav (Slowakian, Sorb, Kashubian, Ruthenian), East-Slav (Ukrainian, Belarussian, Rusyn and Bulgarian language) and Southern-Slav (Slovenian, Croat, Serb, Montenegrin and Macedonian) traditions.
Grußgott,
Pieter
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Post by pjotr on May 27, 2011 16:50:41 GMT 1
''I can`t help feeling uneasy about the sound and this unusual intonation which is rising in each sentence, no matter if it is affirmative, negative or a question,'' This is an excellent observation, Bo. I didn't know what was going on - I knew what this poem is about, but anyway I felt.... uneasy, exactly as you say, and didn't know why - while you have caught it perfectly why. Tufta, I had that feeling when I heard it in the Dutch art salon in the house in Arnhem. The poem comes from a dark world in the past, captured in time, words and images.  Celan: poetry and poeticsPoetry after Auschwitz The death of his parents and the experience of the Shoah (or Holocaust) are defining forces in Celan's poetry and his use of language. In his Bremen Prize speech, Celan said of language after Auschwitz that: " Only one thing remained reachable, close and secure amid all losses: language. Yes, language. In spite of everything, it remained secure against loss. But it had to go through its own lack of answers, through terrifying silence, through the thousand darknesses of murderous speech. It went through. It gave me no words for what was happening, but went through it. Went through and could resurface, 'enriched' by it all." It has been written, inaccurately perhaps, that German is the only language that allows (us?) to penetrate the horror of Auschwitz, to describe death from within. His most famous poem, the early Todesfuge (Fuga Śmierci), commemorating the death camps, is a work of great complexity and extraordinary power, and may have drawn some key motives from the poem by Immanuel Weissglas, another Czernovitz poet. The dual character of Margarete-Sulamith, with her golden-ashen hair, appears as a reflection of Celan's Jewish-German culture, while the blue-eyed " Master from Germany" embodies German Nazism. In later years his poetry became progressively more cryptic, fractured English: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_CelanPolish: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan |
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Post by pjotr on May 27, 2011 17:00:33 GMT 1
FUGA ŚMIERCICzarne mleko świtu pijemy je w wieczór pijemy w południe i rano pijemy je nocą pijemy pijemy kopiemy grób w przestworzach nic w nim nie uwiera Mieszka w domu mężczyzna igra z wężami i pisze pisze o zmierzchu do Niemiec twe włosy złote Margareto napisał wychodzi przed dom iskrzą się gwiazdy gwiżdżąc zwołuje swąsforęgwiżdżąc zwołuje swych Żydów każe im grób kopać w ziemirozkaz wydaje nam zagrajcie do tańcaCzarne mleko świtu pijemy cię nocąpijemy cię rano w południe pijemy cię w wieczórpijemy pijemyMieszka w domu mężczyzna igra z wężami piszegdy zmierzcha pisze do Niemiec twe włosy złote MargaretoTwe włosy popielne Sulamito kopiemy grób w przestworzach nic w nimnie uwieraWoła głębiej wbijcie się w glebę hej wy tam a wy tam grajcieśpiewajciesięga po żelazo za pasem wywija nim jego oczy niebieskieszpadlami wbijcie się głębiej hej wy tam a wy tam grajcie dalej dotańcaCzarne mleko świtu pijemy nocąpijemy cię w południe i rano pijemy cię w wieczórpijemy pijemyMieszka w domu mężczyzna twe włosy złote Margaretotwe włosy popielne Sulamito igra z wężamiCzulej śmierć swą grą wzywajcie śmierć jest mistrzem z Niemiecwoła ciemniej ciągnijcie smyczki wznieście się z dymem w powietrzeznajdziecie swój grób w obłokach nic w nim nie uwieraCzarne mleko świtu pijemy cię nocąpijemy w południe śmierć jest mistrzem z Niemiecpijemy cię wieczorem i rankiem pijemy pijemyśmierć jest mistrzem z Niemiec jej oko niebieskiei trafi cię kulą z ołowiu i trafi cię celnieMieszka w domu mężczyzna twe włosy złote Margaretoi sforę swą na nas szczuje i daje nam grób w przestworzachigra z wężami i śni śmierć jest mistrzem z Niemiectwe włosy złote Margaretotwe włosy popielne Sulamito Piotr Lachmannwww.mmkrakow.pl/346177/2010/11/7/fuga-smierci-paula-celana?category=kultura
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Post by tufta on May 27, 2011 20:01:32 GMT 1
The German, Austrian and Dutch language poetic tradition is differant from the old Polish, Russian, Czech (Bohemian) and other West-Slav (Slowakian, Sorb, Kashubian, Ruthenian), East-Slav (Ukrainian, Belarussian, Rusyn and Bulgarian language) and Southern-Slav (Slovenian, Croat, Serb, Montenegrin and Macedonian) traditions. Pieter, I must confess I have no idea what is the poetic tradition of Montenegro, Macedonia, or to be quite open most of the poetry you mention, except Polish, Russian and some German. I would appreciate a few words comparing these tarditions with German, Austrian and Dutch ( I undestand you treat them alike). I am curious what do you identify as main differences between the poetic traditions along the lines you have drawn. |
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Post by tufta on May 27, 2011 20:10:15 GMT 1
FUGA ŚMIERCICzarne mleko świtu pijemy je w wieczór Pieter, from the times when I was still vividly interested in WWII and Holocaust of the Jews, Roma and 'Forgotten Holocaust' of the Poles I do remember Celan. I never quite understood his poems, in full depth, as that reality is too far from my everyday experience and imagination. Speaking of Romanians I much more prefer Ionescos absurd and Cioran's depression. |
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Post by pjotr on May 30, 2011 7:52:31 GMT 1
Tufta, Thanks for your reply. Maybe I exaggerated the differances between the poetic traditions, because poetry is universal, and poetry has rules and forms which overcomes borders. But there is a differance in language groups and the differant identities, colours, flavors, shapes and meanings of the differant languages and cultural circumstances these languages come from. In my opinion poetry is very important in the cultural traditions and the national identities of for instance Poland and Russia. In the Netherlands poetry is important for an educated minority, but not as important as like in the Anglo-saxon, German or Polish traditions. Proze is much stronger in the Dutch tradition. You even have the form of Prosaic poetry here. Yesterday, I went to Utrecht to a presentation of a (female) friend of mine who is a poet (and artist) and in the same time heard 5 other poets from Amsterdam, Zutphen, Utrecht and Velp (a place connected to Arnhem. My friend is form Velp too) It was a poetry book release by a *Flemish printer. It was great to experiance the Dutch poetry world there, because I am a layman in that world, because I was a proze and fine art man myself. * www.uitgeverij-p.be/ (be means Belgium) Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by pjotr on May 30, 2011 8:38:03 GMT 1
FUGA ŚMIERCICzarne mleko świtu pijemy je w wieczór Pieter, from the times when I was still vividly interested in WWII and Holocaust of the Jews, Roma and 'Forgotten Holocaust' of the Poles I do remember Celan. I never quite understood his poems, in full depth, as that reality is too far from my everyday experience and imagination. Speaking of Romanians I much more prefer Ionescos absurd and Cioran's depression. Tufta, I understand you and you are honest and frank! I think the German-Jewish Rumanian culture is differant from your own culture and preferences maybe. I don't know if you like German poetry in German and which German poet or poets. Personally I am fascinated by Paul Celans Todesfuge, and I don't know his other poems really. Maybe it is a morbid and dark interest of mine in the Second World war, which affected both sides of my family so much. That war has more influence on my life than other people. Maybe it is even the reason that I exist (Poland, Netherlands, Yugoslavia; Dubrovnik in Croatia, where my parents met). That's why this dark poem fascinates me. I don't know Ionescos absurd poetry and Cioran's depression, but I can understand what you mean with that sentance in the broader picture, of European culture and poetry. Cheers, Pieter |
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Post by tufta on May 30, 2011 9:05:08 GMT 1
Pieter, I read German language poetry only in translation. My favoutites are Reiner Maria Rilke, Herman Hesse and maybe also Frideric Schiller (translated among others by Adam Mickiewicz). I understand and feel their poetry and mental life very well and feel there at home. Their original language does not matter, as in all 'eternal' art works imo.
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Post by pjotr on May 30, 2011 16:34:55 GMT 1
Pieter, I read German language poetry only in translation. My favoutites are Reiner Maria Rilke, Herman Hesse and maybe also Frideric Schiller (translated among others by Adam Mickiewicz). I understand and feel their poetry and mental life very well and feel there at home. Their original language does not matter, as in all 'eternal' art works imo. Tufta, Thanks for your reply. I have a sometimes somewhat typical Dutch love-hate relationship with German literature, culture and mentality, which also comes from it's literature. I love German literature, poetry, cinema and music, but in the same time have the distance which comes from my Dutch-Polish past (of difficult relatioship with Germany. Particions, occupations and German claims on the Dutch -West-Germanic and Low saxon and Polish - West-slav - cultures) That has to do with the fact often Germans and others (non-Germans) confuse Dutch (the language) and Dutch culture with German culture. Never tell a Dutchman or a Dane that he is German and his culture is German. ;D I often find the original poetry and literature better than the translated literature. But a good translation by a good poet can add something new to the original poem. And Adam Mickiewicz is not some average poet, he is one of the greatest Polish and European (Universal) poets, recognised by Poles and other poets and poetry lovers around the world.  Pieter P.S.- Reiner Maria Rilke, like Franz Kafka and Paul Celan had roots in the German language heritage of the Austrian-Hungarian world. |
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Post by pjotr on May 30, 2011 16:42:25 GMT 1
Tufta,
To connect this message to my previous one, I can understand Bo and your difficulties with Paul Celans poetry and especially Todesfuge. This uneasyness, distance and depression which creates your reaction is excactly the quality of the poem. It is about the guilt of Germany. It gives you that heavy feeling, feeling your stomach and being dragged in a dark world.
The time they wrote about was dark, heavy, sinister and inhumane.
Pieter
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Post by pjotr on May 31, 2011 10:03:31 GMT 1
The German, Austrian and Dutch language poetic tradition is differant from the old Polish, Russian, Czech (Bohemian) and other West-Slav (Slowakian, Sorb, Kashubian, Ruthenian), East-Slav (Ukrainian, Belarussian, Rusyn and Bulgarian language) and Southern-Slav (Slovenian, Croat, Serb, Montenegrin and Macedonian) traditions. Pieter, I must confess I have no idea what is the poetic tradition of Montenegro, Macedonia, or to be quite open most of the poetry you mention, except Polish, Russian and some German. I would appreciate a few words comparing these tarditions with German, Austrian and Dutch ( I undestand you treat them alike). I am curious what do you identify as main differences between the poetic traditions along the lines you have drawn. Tufta, Maybe you can speak of a cosmopolitan culture of the poets, writers and artists of Central-Europe during and after the Habsburg Austrian-Hungarian period, when a lot of West-Slav and Southern slav copuntries were occupied by the Austrians and after that in the Interbellum period (1919-1939), which (the Interbellum period) was a very important time for the poetry, literature, and art of Central-Europe with Franz kafka, Bruno Schulz, Reiner Maria Rilke, Herman Hesse, Julian Tuwim, Elias Canetti, Max Brod, and others. Pieter |
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Post by Bonobo on May 31, 2011 21:08:17 GMT 1
I can understand Bo and your difficulties with Paul Celans poetry and especially Todesfuge. This uneasyness, distance and depression which creates your reaction is excactly the quality of the poem. Pieter And that is the role of art. It is supposed to amuse or unnerve us. If we stay indifferent, the art is a failure. |
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Post by Bonobo on May 31, 2011 21:12:00 GMT 1
Now I remembered where else I heard it - Churchill in his famous blood, sweat and tears speech also used some of this intonation and I always considered it amusingly strange. |
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Post by pjotr on Jun 1, 2011 16:15:52 GMT 1
I can understand Bo and your difficulties with Paul Celans poetry and especially Todesfuge. This uneasyness, distance and depression which creates your reaction is excactly the quality of the poem. Pieter And that is the role of art. It is supposed to amuse or unnerve us. If we stay indifferent, the art is a failure. You are right, that was part of my education at the art academy, that this message was given to us by the teachers. We were taught a critical stance towards the art wolrd, pieces of art and the value of it. Art is not made like a consumer product, it has a message, often it is a reflection of or on the time it is made in. Art has an important task in society, and that is to trigger people, exite people or suprise people with sculptures in public spaces, paintings, drawings, graphical art (posters), photography, theatre, dance, cinema, music, proze and poetry. |
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