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Post by Bonobo on Sept 25, 2010 18:56:34 GMT 1
Peter, I have used certain English textbook for a few years and never has it occured to me to solve a riddle about A Dutch boy. Today my students asked me a difficult question and I said I would ask you.
Can you help?
There is a text about 3 kids and their schools: traditional English, Indian in the open air and Dutch one on a boat.
Here is the Dutch part:
Marc is 8 yeas old and he is from Holland. His home is on a boat. He and his family are always in different places. "My school is on a boat. It`s fun. Some days there is no school at all!"
Can you explain what it means?
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Post by pjotr on Sept 25, 2010 19:21:15 GMT 1
Bonobo, I can explain it. The Netherlands is an export and import country, with an economy largely based on trade, distribution and transport. We export and import goods via our large harbour in Rotterdam, and some smaller harbours in city and towns which are at our Western and Northern coasts. But there are also smaller harbours inside the Netherlands at it's rivers the Rhine River, the Meuse river (Maas in Dutch) and some other rivers. The Rhine starts in Switzerland, then it goes for 800 km through Germany and then for about 200 km through the Netherlands. The Dutch skippers go to Germany and Switzerland with their goods, but also to Belgium and France via the Meuse. The Netherlands is a country of Inland navigation. Inland navigation is transport with ships via inland water (canals, rivers etc.) between inland ports or quays and wharfs. We call it Binnenvaart, and so there are a lot of Binnevaartschippers ( Inland navigators), people who have commercial transport ships who carry tons of coals, Iron ores, wood, sand, cement and other goods. You have traditional 'binnenvaart schipper' families, who do this work for many generations, for centuries. The shippers have families, and they live and work on their boats. They have their car on board, their home, their kitchen, and they have some sort of schools for 'Binnenvaart' kids. These kids have differant lives than the average Dutch kids, and most often these kids become 'binnenvaart schippers' Inland navigation skippers.  An Inland navigation transport ship Dutch Inland navigation skipper kids like Marc (8) of your example RiversThe country is divided into two main parts by three large rivers, the Rhine (Rijn) and its main distributaries, the Waal and the Meuse (Maas). These rivers functioned as a natural barrier between earlier fiefdoms and hence created traditionally a cultural divide, as is evident in some phonetic traits that are recognizable north and south of these " Large Rivers" (de Grote Rivieren).  The Rhine river at Rotterdam The Rhine river with in the background Arnhem The Waal river The Maas (Meuse) river in the Dutch city Maastricht (called after the rover Meuse)The southwestern part of the Netherlands is a river delta and two tributaries of the Scheldt (Westerschelde and Oosterschelde). Only one significant branch of the Rhine flows northeastward, the IJssel river, discharging into the IJsselmeer, the former Zuiderzee (' southern sea'). This river also forms a linguistic divide: people to the east of this river speak Dutch Low Saxon dialects (except for the province of Friesland, which has its own language).  Westerschelde Oosterschelde The IJssel river with an Inland navigation transport ship |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 25, 2010 20:36:39 GMT 1
The Grote rivieren (or Large rivers) The Split of the Rhine river at Pannerden near the German border, in the Waal and Lower Rhine (NederRijn) rivers.The Grote rivieren, literally translated Great (or Large) rivers, is a landform in the Netherlands. In addition, it is commonly used as a figure speech to denote a divide in Dutch culture linking to the broader Dutch-Flemish culture. Geographical meaningGeographically the term refers to the bisection of the Netherlands by the rivers Nederrijn, Lek, Waal, Merwede and Meuse. This bisection is 25 km. wide and 150 km. long, and was used by the Roman Empire as a border.  Fishermen at the Merwede river View at the Lek river from the Dutch town NieuwegeinSocio-cultural meaningBy use of the colloquialism above/below the great rivers the boundary created by the rivers is highlighted in a cultural sense. The major divergence here is the difference between the predominantly Protestant north and predominantly Catholic south. In addition, dialectical differences (such as the use of the so-called Hard G in the north and the soft G in the south) as well as historical economic development are included in the expression. Although differences are often exaggerated, they display that whilst often a divide is made between Dutch (i.e. the entire Netherlands) and Belgian/Flemish culture, the major cultural divide within Dutch-speaking areas is located within the Netherlands itself, between northern Dutch culture (i.e. the entire Netherlands except Noord-Brabant and Limburg) and southern Dutch culture (i.e. Flanders and the Dutch provinces Noord-Brabant and Limburg). These cultural divergences play a part in the daily life within the Dutch-speaking region and are factors in personal identification among its inhabitants.
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Post by Bonobo on Sept 25, 2010 20:56:54 GMT 1
You have traditional 'binnenvaart schipper' families, who do this work for many generations, for centuries. The shippers have families, and they live and work on their boats. They have their car on board, their home, their kitchen, and they have some sort of schools for 'Binnenvaart' kids. These kids have differant lives than the average Dutch kids, and most often these kids become 'binnenvaart schippers' Inland navigation skippers. Wow, that is incredibly interesting. I would never think that such things still happen in Holland. I will tell you my students` comments on this but I am sure they will like the whole idea. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 25, 2010 21:51:05 GMT 1
Bonobo this is a movie about a Day in the life of a Dutch Binnenvaartschipper. You can see that the little shipper kids enjoy themselves with the ship load. I wonder if that is entirely safe, since in my youth, playing at construction sites of new neighbourhood area's I learned piles of sand can be dangerous, when it suddenly moves. Now I sound like a concerned father.  |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 25, 2010 22:04:35 GMT 1
A heavy loaded binnenvaartschip (transport boat)
The Dutch comment voice in the beginning says; "I start to wonder if you are a lunatic",
talking about the shipper of the 'Binnenvaart schip'.
The movie is shot in Vlissingen the costal town, a Marine and Fishboat harbour and a place where Dutch and Belgian Maritime pilots are working to navigate large containerships and smaller Inland navigation commercial transportboats like these.
The large pilot you see approaching the Binnenvaartship is a Belgian pilot from Vlissingen. Vlissingen is a South-Western Dutch town. My parents stil live there and I like to go to visit them and enjoy the Dutch coast, the sea, the Dunes, the country and the quietness of the Province, compared to the bussy small city I live in. ;D
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Post by pjotr on Sept 25, 2010 22:24:32 GMT 1
Old movie about Binnenvaartschippers kids, who live a life of constant movement, moving from one town to another via the rivers of the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and France and back. Loading and unloading goods.
The voice says, the Netherlands has thousands of shipper families who earn their living with Inland navigation, who carry goods on their small boats through the country and across our boarders. The kids have a alternate life, but their education sufferes from it, because they are to short in one place to be able to have a stabile school life. Therefor in Amsterdam with the help of the Protestant Dutch-Reformed education pillar and the education foundation for Inland navigation, a boarding school for shipper kids could be founded. The kids of the Shipper families live and learn in one place now and their parents can visit whenever they are in Amsterdam where the boarding school is. But life goes on and the parents are everywhere in the Netherlands on the rivers and abroad in other countries on the same rivers that cross our borders. The rivers are their home and they are used to go hundreds or thousands of miles. We must compete with the German, French, Belgian and Swiss Inland navigation, so we must educate our little skippers, to be able to compete with our neighbours in the commercial shipping world. The Skipper kids do not aplly to the Dutch Compulsory education law which counts for most Dutch kids.
Ofcourse the ships are taller today, the machines more sophisticated, some systems computerised, and so are the Canal locks, the bridges, cranes in harbours
and transactions. But the basics are the same. Hard work, tough weather, economical crisis which sometimes means no income, and kids who learn the job by watching their fathers and mothers, and often grandfathers and uncles too. You have family companies with several ships and you have just single boats. Life is on the water. I believe that I heard about boat education that the shippers have a collective system of education fro their kids on boat classes in several towns. But I don't know how it excactly works. I also know that some Shipper wives educate their own kids. They are mother and teacher in one.
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Post by tufta on Sept 26, 2010 19:43:46 GMT 1
Hey, that's a fine way of leading your life!
Pjotr, thanks for great set of information.
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Post by jeanne on Sept 26, 2010 22:12:57 GMT 1
This is kind of related to Peter's information: Some years ago I worked at a shipping company in a port north of Boston. There was a line of ships owned by a Dutch company and manned by Dutch crews. The chief mate on one of the ships had his wife and family always with him on the ships (which ran routes between Canada and our port) until his children became school age. Then he rented an apartment in the port town and his family lived there so the children could go to school and he could be with them whenever his ship came to port. They were a nice family...I remember they had a huge, black Newfoundland dog who was not too happy living in their small apartment!
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Post by Bonobo on Sept 28, 2010 21:33:23 GMT 1
Hey, that's a fine way of leading your life! Pjotr, thanks for great set of information. Really exotic. It reminds me a little of gypsy children in Poland. |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 29, 2010 0:03:08 GMT 1
Hey, that's a fine way of leading your life! Pjotr, thanks for great set of information. You're welcome! |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 29, 2010 0:20:48 GMT 1
Hey, that's a fine way of leading your life! Pjotr, thanks for great set of information. Really exotic. It reminds me a little of gypsy children in Poland. You have a cathegory of white native Dutch nomads who live a life like Gypsies, but they aren't Gypsies, they are called woonwagenbewoners (caravan dwellers), or just Kampers (Campers, after Camping people). Those Dutch nomads and the Dutch gypsies don't mix, but the average Dutch citizen often don't see the differance between the two. Gypsies are dark like Hindu people of India and the caravan dwellers are ligfht skinned and often blond and blue eyed. They just live a differant life than most Dutch people. The ' Travelers' stem from the 19th century poor peasents, agricultural (land) workers and Peat stickers who got unemplyed and impoverished by the Industrial revolution and started to ramble. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Volkstelling_1925_Census.jpgA Dutch Muncipality civil servants visits Dutch caravan dwellers in 1925 Dutch caravan dwellers today Dutch caravan dwellers todayDutch caravan dwellersThe story of the Dutch caravan dweller Jan SchmidtThe documentry above here is called "Our kind of people". I translate the dramartic story of these outsiders in the Dutch society. Pieter The female voice: They live in caravans, and they are called Gypsies. They themselves prefer the description ' Travelers', they call themselves ' Travelers' (Reizigers). Look at ' Our kind of people'! The Romantic image of 'Travelers' (caravan dwellers) who move from village to village with their horses and Covered wagon only lives in old memories. Todays reality is a shrill contrast with that nostalgic past. Ballancing on the edge (lower levels of society) the Travelers fight to keep their identity. Prejudges and negative stereotypes hunt them. Put away in small caravan dwellers camps, drown many silent ' Travelers' in silent greef. Jan Schimdt, himself a caravan dwellor or 'Traveler' has dedicated himself to the cause of the Caravan dwellers. As clergyman of a caravan dweller community he is aware and a witness on daily basis of the painful isolation in which a lot of caravan dwellers are caught. He says, " The first people were wandering people, travelers, from starting with Adam, and only in the sixth generation, the first city builders emerged and people started to settle themselves." " Thus the question actually is, we were created as 'Travelers' (Nomads), the caravan dwellers, the travelers are rooted in Europe (Europe is their heritage). In the past, when most caravan dwellers traveled from village to village, they soon got the name of thieves, also people who had never stolen anything. In a village a rumour spread quickly. Unfortunately negative stories are believed faster then positive stories. That's the way human beings are." " To get rid of that mentality"; " Once a thief always a thief" " For the world there is no change, but we know that it is not like that." " I have seen it with my own daughter, who searched for a job here for a long time. She often was hired, but when her employer found out she lived in a caravan dwellers camp, she was sacked quickly again. It was that bad in a moment that the job office guy told her don't tell you are a caravan dweller." " Whel, I prohibited her that! First we are proud to be caravan dwellers, secondly I said to my daughter, ask them if they have the same problem with black people?" " Or the question if those black people first paint themselves white befor they are going after a job application?" " You are born black and that is the way you are born, and we are born as caravan dwellers, and if they don't accept us, so what, we don't lie awake at night because of that!" " Sometimes there is so much work for my brother, then also the women in the caravans have to help produce rattan (reed) chairs. In the caravans you often have women who make rush-bottomed chairs. " The woman who works on the chair: " Yes, in the past we went along the doors of houses to collect our work. In my schoolholidays I went with my father to collect the materials and things which needed to be repaired. My own kids already play with reed, so they get used to it. In that way you learn it autmatically from your parents. I think that just looking in the peoples houses you will not find this work anymore there. I don't think so. If you say 'Our sort people', what do you mean by that? (the male comment voice askes her). Whel, I don't see civilian people working on a rattan chair, I think, I don't know. Look I just have a normal relationship with these citizens. These people have reached more than we. My husbant says we think to low of our selves, We only have low jobs. We don't have high expectations. We don't say hi towards eachother, because those civilians might think we are from the 'travelers camp'." |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 29, 2010 1:33:46 GMT 1
You have 30 thousand caravan dwellers in the Netherlands today.
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Post by tufta on Sept 29, 2010 8:15:40 GMT 1
but they aren't Gypsies, they are called woonwagenbewoners (caravan dwellers), or just Kampers (Campers, after Camping people). Another great way of life, next to the boat people. Provided that the nomad has a lot of money of course ;D |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 29, 2010 17:30:28 GMT 1
but they aren't Gypsies, they are called woonwagenbewoners (caravan dwellers), or just Kampers (Campers, after Camping people). Another great way of life, next to the boat people. Provided that the nomad has a lot of money of course ;D They are poor, live a lifestile which is comparable with the Gypsies, and there really is a significant criminal element amongst them. They are know for their Soft drugs (Canabis), Car theft and Handling stolen goods (Paserstwo), closed community thinking, and their use of the sublanguage Bargoens. They are disliked like Gypsies in most European countries, by the general Dutch population, who do not like it when a camp of ' Travelers' is in their environment. Remember they come from the lowest regions of our society. They were part of the Dutch underclass for the last two centuries. They were and are outcasts, Outsiders, and differant than the rest of the Dutch. They are white European, Dutch nomands! Some of them became Dutch language singers (like the German Schlager), and very popular amongst the Dutch masses. I don't like Dutch language music, but the Dutch masses love it.  Frans Bauer (Roosendaal, 30 December 1973) is a Dutch singer
of "het levenslied" (Dutch folk music). Marianne Weber ((Utrecht, 5 december 1955) is a Dutch singer
of "het levenslied" (Dutch folk music). |
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Post by pjotr on Sept 29, 2010 17:34:04 GMT 1
Bargoens
Bargoens is a form of Dutch slang. More specifically, it is a cant language that arose in the 17th century, and was used by criminals, tramps and travelling salesmen as a secret code, like Spain's Germanía or French Argot.
However, the word "Bargoens" usually refers to the thieves' cant spoken in the latter half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century. The actual slang varied a lot from place to place; often "Bargoens" denotes the variety from the Holland region in the Netherlands, especially Amsterdam. While many words from Bargoens have faded into obscurity, others have become part of standard Dutch (but are more often used in the Amsterdam dialect than in other Dutch dialects). Examples of words now common in Dutch: hufter (bastard), gappen (to steal) and poen (money). As is the case for most thieves' languages, many of the words from Bargoens are either insults or concern money, crime or sex.
Due to the large number of Jews who were travelling salesmen, and because of their position as relative outcasts, Bargoens has many Yiddish loanwords. Examples are sjacheren (to barter), mesjogge (crazy) or jatten (hands, to steal).
The name of this cant is close to baragouin, which means "jargon" in French.
Examples of Bargoens words
apehaar - Bad tabaco
appie kim - correct
bajes - (Yiddish) Prison
bekakt - snobish
bollebof - boss
bisnis - business life
eisjedies - adultery
gabber - (Yiddish) Friend, Comrade
gozer - (Yiddish) guy, boy
lef - (Yiddish) guts, nerve, daring
jatten - (Yiddish) slang for stealing (Stelen in Dutch)
penoze - (Yiddish) the underworld of criminals, the criminal group
opduvelen - (Yiddish) Beat it, get the hell out of here.
temeier - prostitute
kassiewijle - slang for dead or out of order, broken, finished.
togus/tokus - someones behind, ass, bum, buttocks
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Post by tufta on Sept 30, 2010 7:40:55 GMT 1
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Post by pjotr on Sept 30, 2010 11:03:02 GMT 1
Tufta, A very nice house on wheels, I miss a studio (for me to draw and paint) or an office though. The expensive yachts, there are several small warfs in the Netherlands who built luxery yachts like that. The larger warfs closed but the smaller ones are succesful. Pieter |
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Post by tufta on Oct 1, 2010 6:50:10 GMT 1
Tufta, A very nice house on wheels, I miss a studio (for me to draw and paint) or an office though. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D maybe you could arrange a studio with great natural light on the roof, Pieter? |
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Post by Bonobo on Nov 18, 2010 19:36:45 GMT 1
In a Dutch pop group`s clip about Polish workers in the Netherlands there is a scene with Poles taking a piss next to the road. See at 1:06.
Is it considered as unusual behaviour in Holland?
I myself do it, and my kids, too, when we travel around Poland and abroad.
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Post by pjotr on Nov 18, 2010 22:13:16 GMT 1
In a Dutch pop group`s clip about Polish workers in the Netherlands there is a scene with Poles taking a piss next to the road. See at 1:06. Is it considered as unusual behaviour in Holland? I myself do it, and my kids, too, when we travel around Poland and abroad. In my opinion it is a stupid Dutch Carnaval song, in the Dutch version of the German schlager music. This kind of music isn't liked by developped Dutch people, who studied or love REAL music. It is a demeaning song, to make fun of another nationality to have fun or pleasure oneself. It was a sort of hit, because the Dutch masses of brainless people like such shit. (Sorry, it is ofcourse my personal subjective meaning) Translation: Refrain: A small bus full of Poles
A small bus full of Poles
Go, Go , Go!
In the morning and late at night small bus full of Poles drives in our street.
Look them going, where do they come from?
Where are they hiding themselves?
*On the farm lands and at the constructions sites they don't take their job to serious.
They come with all of them.
For a few Euro's and some tins of beer.
That's where they are here for.
Yes, you see them everywhere.
It is a border case, or are they our heroes?
Where I go or stand I always wave at them!
In our neighbour they rented a house again , cosy together with the all of them.
When they have done their job back at home they play their Polka music.
Refrain: and etc.* This is ofcourse nonsense, the Polish workers often do their job better than Dutch workers, and many Dutch employers and private house owners who rent Polish workers to do renovate their houses are very content (pleased) with the job of the Poles. Inmy street and my neighbourhood the parking places are full of Polish cars and small buses. They are making my street and neighbourhood wonderful. This former shabby redlight district (yes, I lived as a student in the red light disctrict and stil live theire now the ladies are gone. ;D ) is transformed to a normal neighbourhood for yuppies, families and other Arnhem people (students and others). I see Polish cars and hear Polish every day. (But I have no contacts with the workers, because I don't speak Polish). |
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Post by Bonobo on Nov 18, 2010 22:38:17 GMT 1
In my opinion it is a stupid Dutch Carnaval song, Piotr, it is OK. I find this song amusing. I do know Poles who behave like that. I myself do, so why should I be offended? . ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Can you answer my question? Don`t the Dutch pull over and take a piss next to the road when they feel an urge? Is it so special when Poles do it in Holland? ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by pjotr on Nov 18, 2010 22:49:59 GMT 1
In my opinion it is a stupid Dutch Carnaval song, Piotr, it is OK. I find this song amusing. I do know Poles who behave like that. I myself do, so why should I be offended? . ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Can you answer my question? Don`t the Dutch pull over and take a piss next to the road when they feel an urge? Is it so special when Poles do it in Holland? ;D ;D ;D ;D I can smile about it, because I have a thick skin and a ironical sense of humor and sometimes (not all the time) am cynical, in the Dutch perspective. Bononobo, I think all men and boys in the world piss outside if they can. But in the Netherlands the pissing in cities, towns and villages became a problem for old buildings and houses, who were damaged by pissing men. And due to that in the typical Dutch strictness and fondness of rules and regulation pissing outside is prohibited. Caught pissing outside can cost you 60 Euro's. I once was chased by Amsterdam cops, because I was pissing outside and did not want to pay 60 Euro's. I ran away and lost them. ;D You know the problem of not finding a proper toilet in time. Bonobo, Poles and Dutch men are alike, they are men, and Dutch workers too piss outside, even though it is prohibited. I like Dutch carnaval, but I don't like Carnaval music, because I don't like Dutch peoples music (I call it the Dutch version of German schlager. Real Dutch lovers of Dutch people music who do not like German music would be offended, but I think it is exmplainable. We are Germanic peoples. Probably Polish, Czech and Slowakian peoples music have simularities too. Dutch people don't like to be placed in the same language and cultural group as the Germans. But it is a fact that the Dutch, Flemish, German and even Danish cultures are very close to eachother). Pieter |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 24, 2010 2:22:19 GMT 1
Wow, that is incredibly interesting. I would never think that such things still happen in Holland. I will tell you my students` comments on this but I am sure they will like the whole idea. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D My students find it very surprising first, then amusing. Next one: What is written here: Here rest the Dutch.......by Nazi Germans  |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 24, 2010 9:47:24 GMT 1
Bonobo, the translation is:
"Here rest in Peace Dutch men next to their Polish mates (or palls). They died for the Freedom of the Peoples"
It is really written in the old Dutch of that time, today you would write it like this:
Hier rusten Nederlanders naast hun Poolse kameraden.
Zij stierven voor de Vrijheid van de volken!
Poolsche is an example of the old Dutch spellling, we do not use sch anymore, instaid of that we use s today. (It shows that in the past Dutch was closer to the German language than today). The word "der" is also something of the old Dutch spelling, today it is mostly replaced by "van de" or other words! Sometimes it is used though! Mostly by older people who used or stil use the old Dutch spelling. This sign therefor is an interesting piece of historical language development.
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Post by pjotr on Dec 24, 2010 10:01:08 GMT 1
Wow, that is incredibly interesting. I would never think that such things still happen in Holland. I will tell you my students` comments on this but I am sure they will like the whole idea. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D My students find it very surprising first, then amusing. Next one: What is written here: Here rest the Dutch.......by Nazi Germans There are two mistakes in the sign, but not large mistakes. First the word STIERUEN should be STIERVEN, like the English word STARVED. And before that Z.J. should be ZIJ. But I could read it and understand the meaning, so that big the mistake is not. |
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 24, 2010 11:29:18 GMT 1
So what does it mean exactly? |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 24, 2010 23:20:00 GMT 1
Bonobo,
I don't know where this Commemorative plaque is placed? At a Polish cemetery somewhere. There must have been joint actions of Poles and Dutch soldiers, resistance fighters or maybe concentration camp prisoners that escaped? I honestly don't know Bonobo, because I haven't took the image, and I don't know for whom this Commemorative plaque is and who these people were? Where is this image taken?
Pieter
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Post by Bonobo on Dec 25, 2010 0:16:27 GMT 1
Bonobo, I don't know where this Commemorative plaque is placed? At a Polish cemetery somewhere. There must have been joint actions of Poles and Dutch soldiers, resistance fighters or maybe concentration camp prisoners that escaped? I honestly don't know Bonobo, because I haven't took the image, and I don't know for whom this Commemorative plaque is and who these people were? Where is this image taken? Pieter Peter, for God`s sake, can you just translate what is written there? Word by word? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by pjotr on Dec 25, 2010 9:49:24 GMT 1
I did!
"Here rest in Peace Dutch men next to their Polish comrades. They died for the Freedom of the Peoples"
Comrades can also be read as buddies, palls or mates!
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