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Post by pjotr on Oct 19, 2011 19:26:14 GMT 1
From another site: ""Do expatriates who have left the UK or in fact expatriates of any other country of which they are natives have the right to then criticize and give advice to their native country fallen on hard times and so justifying their timely exit? The analogy of rats leaving the sinking ship comes to mind. Of course, they have the right to speak their mind BUT those expatriates should not be surprised if readers of their comments are tempted to read something else into their sentiments expressed, i.e. self-justification for their departure from a feeling of guilt perhaps or nostalgia for the mother country after realizing perhaps that, warts and all, it is providing a feeling of belonging, the creature comforts of being amongst people of one's own kind, of sharing their happy times and difficult times as should be, like in a family. A feeling of belonging which no amount of sunshine can make up for. I know what I am talking about, having been, as a German, an expatriate in the Far East for many years, whilst my prolonged sojourns in the UK and France never felt like being ex patria, rather more like being with the extended family. The Far East, however, always felt alien and despite not wanting to have missed the mostly pleasant experience of living and working there, I was always deeply nostalgic for Europe in general and Germany in particular and would never have thought of criticizing it much."" Tufta, My experiance with women who left their country and became citizens of a new country, the country they went to is that they are focussed on the life in their new country and become somewhat alienated from their country of birth and earlier life. I talk about my mother who left Poland and about my sister who left the Netherlands. They focussed their lives on their new homelands and families, which were and are Dutch and South-African. My mother became Dutch and my sister is becoming a fluently English South-African accent speaking South-African. Although she watches Dutch expat tv ( BVN) for Dutch and Flemish people abroad (outside the Benelux), she is not linked to the reality on the ground and does not understand all changes, because she reads no Dutch newspapers and magazines next to this limited TV for expats.  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BVN |
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Post by tufta on Oct 20, 2011 8:58:16 GMT 1
Pieter, the note I have cited very well depicts the situation we have been talking about many times. It also documents the phenomenon it depicts is wider, not specific nation related. The note does not depict EVERYONE, who left the country. As everyone has the right to live wherever he/she wants. But it very well summarizes the attitude, and how they are percepted, of a blogosphere, or web-sphere active first-generation emmmigrants, especially the educated ones, deriving from intelligentsia. Ss the insightful author of that note wrote: ""they have the right to speak their mind BUT those expatriates should not be surprised if readers of their comments are tempted to read something else into their sentiments expressed, i.e. self-justification for their departure". I was trying to express that many times in our exchanges. I do understand and respect that your pov is different.
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Post by pjotr on Oct 20, 2011 23:45:26 GMT 1
From another site: Do expatriates who have left the UK or in fact expatriates of any other country of which they are natives have the right to then criticize and give advice to their native country fallen on hard times and so justifying their timely exit? My opinion of this is that they have not if they have left, did not return and have no connection to their native country (country of origin). It is a fact that negative images and fierce criticism of some countries come from expats or emigrants who left their country and give a bad image of their country of origin abroad. In my country you have assimilated or integrated Turks, Moroccans, Kurds or Iranians who give a bad image of Turkey, Morocco or Iran. I haven't heard of Poles or met Poles who spoke negative about Poland. In the case of my mother or older Polish emigré's of her generation, they simply say that they can't give a clear image of present day Poland, and therefor abstain from criticism. My mother told me that there has changed so much in Poland that Poland is a totally different country than the Poland she left. Everybody knows this, but she also means that the Polish people themselves have changed, they are modern and Western today. She even believes that Poland will have changed linguisticly, that in the 44 years she did not live and work in Poland new words and expressions must have entered the Polish vocabulary. it is exiting to see the development of New Poland after 1989. One day my mother told me, you know more about Poland today than I do, because I follow the news and development in and of Poland (through English, German and Dutch media sources, and via the Polish Forums). But that is not the same as knowing and reading the Polish quality press, and living, working, learning and developing yourself in Poland through a Polish life. In the same logic you can say that I am more Dutch today than my South-African sister, although she is very Dutch indeed, and has Dutch friends in Cape Town and more acces to Dutch news, media and connections (her family and friends in Holland) than my mother and I have with Poland. The analogy of rats leaving the sinking ship comes to mind. Of course, they have the right to speak their mind BUT those expatriates should not be surprised if readers of their comments are tempted to read something else into their sentiments expressed, i.e. self-justification for their departure from a feeling of guilt perhaps or nostalgia for the mother country after realizing perhaps that, warts and all, it is providing a feeling of belonging, the creature comforts of being amongst people of one's own kind, of sharing their happy times and difficult times as should be, like in a family. I think a lot of immigrants (or emigrants) have that feeling. A lot of the people who moved to the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South-Africa, stayed Europeans, and the Poles, Dutch and German people they were. Look for instance at Karl (our German friend of the Jaga Forum), he is a typical example of a German-American who stayed German. In the same way I know Dutch-Americans who stayed very Dutch, although they are American, they kept their Dutch Calvinist faith or Duch Roman-Catholic faith, Dutch customs, Dutch names, Dutch products and even Dutch names of their towns or villages. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friesland,_Wisconsin en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland,_Michigan en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeland,_Michigan en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeland,_North_Dakota en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_(city),_New_York en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_(town),_New_York  Pella, Iowa  Pella Dutch dialectPella Dutch is a dialect of the Dutch language spoken in Pella, Iowa. It is derived from South Guelderish, a dialect spoken in the Netherlands. pellachamber.spinstage.com/aspx/chambermembership/yourchamber/grpahicsstandards.aspx?cid=0&sid=2&n1id=1&n2id=16I am sure that you will have Polish towns, villages and neighbourhoods in the USA too where Polish is spoken, teached, and transfered from grandparents, to parents, to children and grandchildren. My mother had a waiter in a Polish-American restaurant in Chicago who spoke Polish to her in the 1980's. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_(town),_New_York A feeling of belonging which no amount of sunshine can make up for. The writer of the article is right, my sister always has a special feeling of belonging, safety and coming home when she is in the Netherlands. She loves the cycling, the sea and the coast, the villages, towns and cities (especially Amsterdam where she studied, lived and worked), the landscapes, the language, the people, the typical Dutch products, her family, friends and childhood, teenage and young adult life memories. I know what I am talking about, having been, as a German, an expatriate in the Far East for many years, whilst my prolonged sojourns in the UK and France never felt like being ex patria, rather more like being with the extended family. The Far East, however, always felt alien and despite not wanting to have missed the mostly pleasant experience of living and working there, I was always deeply nostalgic for Europe in general and Germany in particular and would never have thought of criticizing it much. I think our Karl, who has experiance with South-Africa, Syria, the USA and Mexico, could have wrote this, like the expat German abroad he is. |
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Post by Bonobo on Oct 25, 2011 18:50:16 GMT 1
Tusk came to Krakow and ran 7 kilometers around B³onia fields, doing 2 laps. Wow! It is good. Leaders should be fit. Do you remember Jimmy Carter in 1979? He almost fainted during the race. Americans saw their President utterly exhausted and it was a scary view for them. Some experts say that it cost him the Presidency. The leader mustn`t be a weak wimp. www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20074710,00.html |
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Post by Bonobo on Oct 25, 2011 18:52:49 GMT 1
Interesting ads:
Leftist party female candidate encouraged people to vote for her:
but in vain.
PO`s ad was about PiS` aggressive nature. It shows PiS` supporters in action and poses a fundamental question: They are going to vote. What about you?
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Post by Bonobo on Oct 25, 2011 18:59:29 GMT 1
Polish sense of humour is really unique.  The election silence forbids any polls - fines up to 1 million zlotys. So, Twitter, Facebook etc members used vegetable terminology to chat about elections. They talked about POry (leeks) which cost 32 zlotys (percent), PIStachios - 30.8 zlotys, Canabis (Palikot Party) - 11 zlotys, Red Tomatoes (leftist SLD)-10, Clover (farmer PSL) -9 etc etc. www.tvn24.pl/12690,1720261,,,pory-po-34-54-zl-_-czyli-twitter-p odaje-wyniki-sondazy,wiadomosc.html Distribution of votes: PO takes the WaWaWest and Midcentre of Poland. Oopps, Krakow in the blue. Conservative guys for ever!  Comparison:  How did expat Poles vote abroad? Chicago - PiS at 80%. New York - 50%. Belarus- similar. Bulgaria and Romania voted PO! Urban voters have chosen PO. Country voters -PiS. In biggest cities the ratio was 2:1.  |
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Post by Bonobo on Oct 25, 2011 19:18:08 GMT 1
Why did most people with higher education vote PO? While primary and vocational education voted PiS? Do you think it bears any significance or not?  I just read it in Newsweek Poland- the insider source explained what the main reasons of PiS` loss are, according to J Kaczyñski. He mentioned the following mistakes of his party and himself: 1. Merkel as alleged Stasi agent scandal. 2. PiS` support for radical football fans. 3. Gazeta Polska`s dubious support for PiS. |
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Post by pgardecki on Oct 29, 2011 9:34:06 GMT 1
I am in Poland, new government will be formed no later then 8 November 2011.
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Post by pjotr on Nov 8, 2011 12:56:09 GMT 1
I am in Poland, new government will be formed no later then 8 November 2011. Pjotr, What did you vote as a Polish artist? Cheers, Pieter |
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