Irritating anti-Polish hotline Netherlands

[pjotr]

EU anger at ‘xenophobic’ Dutch website
Published on : 13 February 2012 - 9:34pm | By Gerhard Verduijn



A Europe-wide row has broken out over a website launched by the populist Freedom Party. On the site, people are asked to “tell their stories” about trouble caused by East European migrants to the Netherlands.

The European Union has branded the site “an open call for intolerance”. Ten ambassadors from East European countries have sent a letter of protest to the Dutch parliament. The government declines to comment, but the anger is growing.

The Netherlands has once again some international explaining to do about Geert Wilders’ right-wing Freedom Party (PVV). The release in 2008 of his anti-Islam film Fitna caused outrage, and now the party’s website for complaints about Central and East Europeans in the Netherlands has sparked another controversy.



The website invites people to register complaints about nuisance and job losses caused by Poles, Romanians, Hungarians and other East Europeans in the Netherlands. Respondents can also level accusations of crime, alcohol and drug abuse and prostitution at the group.

The PVV says people have in the past been reluctant to make official complaints about East Europeans because they thought nothing would be done about it. The party has undertaken to collate information from the website and present it to the Dutch government.

Hard working Poles
The website has elicited anger, especially in East and Central Europe. As early as last week, the Polish ambassador to the Netherlands gave vent to his outrage. “The picture sketched by Mr Wilders’ of hard working Poles contaminating the Dutch jobs market is an insult,” he said.

The European Commission also slammed the PVV move. Viviane Reding, the European Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship commissioner, called the site “an open call for intolerance”. She went on: “In Europe we support freedom. We solve our problems by showing more solidarity, not by telling tales on fellow citizens.”

Humorous protests
In the Netherlands, the left-wing opposition has been quick to exploit the situation. At least four websites were immediately launched to poke fun at the PVV. One invited people to complain about people from the southern Dutch province of Limburg – where Geert Wilders was born. Another, calling itself the Valuable Conviviality Hotline, was launched by the Polish-Dutch rapper, Mr Polska: “Have you had a wild night out with some Poles? Let us know.”

Employers’ groups have been more seriously irritated by the PVV website. Many Central and East Europeans do jobs which Dutch people are no longer willing to do, such as in the market gardening industry in the west of the Netherlands. The VNO-NCW employers’ organisation has condemned the PVV site as xenophobic and is calling on the government to make a point of distancing itself from it.

The call is lost on conservative VVD Prime Minister Mark Rutte, however, who says the website is just PVV party business about which he sees no reason to comment. Social Affairs Minister Henk Kamp (VVD) has also declined to condemn it.

Embarrassed
Despite the public nonchalance, the government has once again been embarrassed by the PVV. The minority right-wing coalition can only rule courtesy of a deal ensuring PVV support from parliament in exchange for a tough line on immigration, asylum and other issues dear to the PVV. Ministers are regularly embarrassed, though, by Mr Wilders stirring up populist trouble.

Just as he did during the fuss created by his film, Fitna, he is rubbishing the latest condemnations in typically blunt language. The charge made by the European Commission that his website is discriminatory is dismissed as “fantasy and nonsense – Brussels can stuff it.” In the glare of publicity, Mr Wilders is pointing in triumph to the success of the website, saying that more than 32,000 people have already lodged complaints about European migrants in less than a week.

[pjotr]

Folks,

I already made jokes about this new PVV hotline for Central- and eastern Europe with another half Polish person from my work. She told me today; "I reported you to the hotline as 50% Pole" (In Dutch law you are considered foreign when you have one parents who is born abroad). Thanks I replied to her; "I will report you too". This is ironical humor to put things into perspective. Reasonable or human people, Dutch people, are disgusted by this xenophobe, discriminatory PVV website directed against ethnic minorities. In general this website or hotline is simply called the anti-Poles hotline.

Other Dutch people started a Pro-Poles hotline in protest against and irritation about the PVV hotline for Central- and Eastern-Europeans.

60% of people who were asked in a Dutch TV poll about the PVV hotline said they find it a bad idea (xenophobic and discriminating), and 30 % finds it a good initiative (they are PVV and VVD supporters/members/voters). 10% has no opinion.
It is shocking though that 30% is against the Polish immigrants who work hard in the Netherlands and contribute to the Dutch economy.

Here both hotlines:

The PVV hotline for Central- and East-Europeans
www.meldpuntmiddenenoosteuropeanen.nl/

Pro Poles website as counterveiling power for the PVV hotline
propolen.nl/


Cheers,
Pieter

Links to Polonia in the Netherlands:
www.polonus.nl/pl/polonus.html
www.polonia.nl/

[pjotr]

Dutch Press Review Wednesday 15 February 2012

Most Dutch morning newspapers pick up where they left off yesterday: there’s more commotion over Wilders’ “anti-Polish” website.

For a third day running, Geert Wilders and his controversial website - which invites people to post complaints about Central and Eastern Europeans – eclipse all other stories in the leading Dutch newspapers.

Most of the front pages say it with flowers. “Let their tulips wilt” headlines Trouw above a report from Poland, where the government has lodged a formal complaint with the European Commission and where people are fed up with “Dutch xenophobia”.

Some in Poland are now calling for a boycott of Dutch products. Apparently, the outcry is so widespread and so intense that a special logo has been designed in Poland. It shows a black tulip in a red and white stop sign, with the caption “The tulip is fake”.



Trouw explains the symbolism: “the tulip stands for Holland Promotion and a black tulip is the blackest possible pr for the Netherlands.” Other papers, too, express concern about the reputation of the Netherlands and about possible economic and political repercussions.

“Businesses damaged by website”, is the banner headline of de Volkskrant. The paper displays the tulip logo in a graphic that shows the considerable scale of Dutch exports to Eastern Europe, with Poland the key trading partner.

National reputation dented
“For centuries, the Netherlands and Dutch society used to be seen in our countries as a shining light for freedom and tolerance,” write ten worried Central and Eastern European Ambassadors in an open letter to “Dutch society and its political leaders”. The letter is printed in full on the NRC Handelsblad front page. In it, the diplomats call on Dutch politicians to distance themselves from the website.

The AD notes that conservative Prime Minister Mark Rutte has so far refused, on the grounds that the Dutch government has nothing to do with the website, even though it was created by the Geert Wilders’ Freedom Party, the cabinet’s key political ally in parliament.

Even De Telegraaf - mouthpiece of the more Rutte-minded section of the electorate - has a veteran conservative leader say that the prime minister “could have emphasized a bit more that East Europeans are hard-working people who do the chores for which no Dutchmen can be found.” He feels the “whole hullabaloo about the website is yet another media hype” from which only one man benefits: Geert Wilders.

For his part, the anti-immigrant Freedom Party leader notes with glee that, in just a few days, his party’s website has drawn 40,000 - mostly anonymous - complaint about Central and Eastern Europeans. The complaints range from “they’re stealing our jobs” to more crime, more alcohol abuse, more noise and more danger on the motorways. “We’ve hit bullseye,” boasts Wilders.

Meanwhile, an Eskimo in an AD cartoon would like to report that two Poles are in the process of melting, but he’s told that Wilders’ website is not the right place to register the impact of climate change on the North and South Pole…

[pjotr]

The Dutch say it with flowers for Poland
Published on : 16 February 2012 - 4:31pm | By Tom Onsman (Photo: Keukenhof)

A famous Dutch flower garden is receiving messages of gratitude from Poland, while at the same time the Central European country is angry with the Dutch government.

The reason for the anger is that the Dutch Prime Minister, Mark Rutte, doesn't want to take any action against the website set up by the Freedom Party (PVV) on which Dutch citizens may register their complaints about migrants from Poland and other Central European countries. The reason is that his minority coalition depends on support from the PVV to get its policies approved in parliament.

Coincidentally 'Poland, the Heart of Europe' is this year's central theme of the Keukenhof, the internationally-renowned annual flower show in the Dutch town of Lisse. Wim van Meerfield of the Keukenhof says: "The Netherlands has much reason to thank the tens of thousands of Polish migrant workers who work especially in the flower sector. We chose the theme two years ago, because Poland is a very important trading partner for flowers and bulbs. It's our seventh-largest export market. "

Immediately after the commotion around the website broke out, the Keukenhof received strong support from Poland, because this tourist attraction shows the country and its people in a positive way. Mr Van Meerfield says "You mustn't underestimate the Poles. They really do appreciate that the website only represents a minority opinion, and that there is a different view that we, amongst others, are presenting. We don't expect them to stay away. "

According to the Polish-Dutch Chamber of Commerce the "Poland Hotline" of the PVV is harming the image of Dutch companies in Poland. There's even talk of a boycott of Dutch products.



Keukenhof? That’s the place to see spring blossom. The park is unique, world famous, and has been one of the most popular destinations in the Netherlands for sixty years now. Haven’t seen Keukenhof? Then you haven’t seen the Netherlands. You won’t find such an abundance of colours and fragrances anywhere else. More than seven million flowers form a glorious decor for the most beautiful photos. Come to Keukenhof and enjoy the ultimate spring feeling, the wonderful works of art, the surprising insipration gardens and the many flower shows.



Theme 2012: Poland - Heart of Europe

Classical music and romance form an excellent combination with flowers. Besides, Poland is becoming an increasingly important market for Dutch cut flowers and bulbs and the number of tourists visiting from Poland is growing.



www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0f343f52-6e8f-11e0-a13b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1maYBh5to

[pjotr]

Tufta and Bo,

Dit you hear about this rediculous, humiliating, dum and racist hotline/website in Poland? Was it in the news in Warsaw and Krakow. Was it on your national television, radio or newspapers or magazines. The subject caused quite some uproar in the Netherlands, and again this was a subject to devide this nation, as if it is not already devided enough in the sense of political polarisation. But that is the fact of the present conditione humaine in this European country in the North-West corner of our Continent. And even the rightwing or the right of politics is devided on this subject. The employers, mostly on the right of the political side, because they support rightwing economical views, and VVD government supporters or Christian democrats are fed up with Wilders PVV, because they like Polish employee's and they fear the Dutch position on the European market and the relationship with the Central- and Eastern European markets, trade partners and authorities. A boycot of Dutch products by Poles in Poland would not be such a bad idea if you look at the xenophobe climate in the Netherlands. We complain about the "rightwing regime" in Hungary, but forget our own populists to easssssily, because we are tired or fed up listening to them. But the more simple side of the electorate, the working class masses who live in migrant area's or the people from rural area's vote PVV, and long for the good old fiftees and sixtees when there were no foreigners (immigrants, asylum seekers and political refugees). The Dutch opinion is split over the Polish question. Negative stereotypes, aversion to alien people who speak a language you do not understand and have other habits can easily lead to discrimination and chauvinist populism.

Cheers,
Pieter

[Bonobo]

Feb 17, 2012 0:11:03 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Tufta and Bo,

Dit you hear about this rediculous, humiliating, dum and racist hotline/website in Poland? Was it in the news in Warsaw and Krakow. Was it on your national television, radio or newspapers or magazines.

Actually, yes, I have heard about it a few times before and it was on today`s evening news, too. I even thought of starting the thread myself.

I don`t condemn those right wingers. They do what they are programmed to do, it is their job. If we assume that democracy is our political system, then we have to agree to the presence of such guys in a democratic system.

A boycot of Dutch products by Poles in Poland would not be such a bad idea if you look at the xenophobe climate in the Netherlands.

Yes, I heard such opinions in Poland that Dutch merchandise should be boycotted.

However, I don`t think it will work. Poles are not revengeful people by character.

And a student of mine has already told me he is going to work in Holland after passing final exams. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The Dutch opinion is split over the Polish question. Negative stereotypes, aversion to alien people who speak a language you do not understand and have other habits can easily lead to discrimination and chauvinist populism.

It is normal. I wonder how Poles will look on job seekers and immigrants who will arrive to our country when it progresses to such a wealthy state as Holland today. Today the stream is very feeble but it may become a torrent in near future.
I have no doubts - many Poles` reaction will be as xenophobic as the Dutch`s today.

[tufta]

Feb 17, 2012 0:11:03 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Tufta and Bo,

Dit you hear about this rediculous, humiliating, dum and racist hotline/website in Poland?

Yes. What I am preoccupied with is Mark Rutte's deafening silence. I understand his government is weak, but by keeping silence he is weakening it further (in the long run he weakens own 'electoral supply base'). I've heard the Christian Democrats already start to sing the xenophobic song too. To tell the truth the traditional image Netherlands had in Poland is crumbling... Mark Rutte should take head oit of teh sand and firmly clear his FUNDAMENTAL position: does he (Netherlands he's representing) approve Dutch participation in the EU, part of which is accepting that EU citizens may travel and work whereever they want, or is he for... leaving the EU by the Netherlands.
The criminal, misbehaving Poles should be treated adequately by the local police and the penitenciary system, just as any other citizens. Anything else is heavily braeches the aggreed rules of coexistence inside teh Union. Geert Wilders can do what he wants - not so Netherlands, and thus it's PM.

All the best to you Pjotr. And have patience with this PVV. We have their kin in Poland, too...

[pjotr]

Feb 17, 2012 12:33:46 GMT 1 tufta said:

Feb 17, 2012 0:11:03 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Tufta and Bo,

Dit you hear about this rediculous, humiliating, dum and racist hotline/website in Poland?

Yes. What I am preoccupied with is Mark Rutte's deafening silence. I understand his government is weak, but by keeping silence he is weakening it further (in the long run he weakens own 'electoral supply base'). I've heard the Christian Democrats already start to sing the xenophobic song too. To tell the truth the traditional image Netherlands had in Poland is crumbling... Mark Rutte should take head oit of teh sand and firmly clear his FUNDAMENTAL position: does he (Netherlands he's representing) approve Dutch participation in the EU, part of which is accepting that EU citizens may travel and work whereever they want, or is he for... leaving the EU by the Netherlands.
The criminal, misbehaving Poles should be treated adequately by the local police and the penitenciary system, just as any other citizens. Anything else is heavily braeches the aggreed rules of coexistence inside teh Union. Geert Wilders can do what he wants - not so Netherlands, and thus it's PM.

All the best to you Pjotr. And have patience with this PVV. We have their kin in Poland, too...

Tufta and Bonobo,

Thanks for your reactions. I understand them very well. Both your views are expressed in the Netherlands as well. Yes, Bo, I know those far right wingers have the right to their opinion and freedom of speech and organisation. yes, they do what they are programmed to do, it is their job. And I know them very well. Spoke with these kind of people in private conversations and interviewed them. I know their views, their politics and their agenda. The traditional politics (the democratic parties from left and right) thought that this phenomenon (far right nationalist populism, with right and leftwing populist views) would be temporary, like Pim Fortuyns movement early this century ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn_List ). But Wilders learned from the LPF, party which was very divided. I interviewed Wilders myself in Arnhem, and he is a smart strategist and tactical thinker. He did not participated in all muncipalities back then in the muncipal (=local) elections of that year. I asked him why can't Arnhem people vote for you (my role then was advocate of the devil, since I am not a PVV supporter), and I said, "Now your votes go to your rightwing competitors, the VVD and Proud of the Netherlands." (another populist party that existed back then). Wilders said exactly; "I wish them (the other parties) luck with my votes. We need more time to organise ourselves propperly, I don't want LPF circumstances." Yes, democracy is my Dutch political system, and I have to agree to the presence of Geert Wilders PVV in this democratic system. But I have also the democratic right to oppose his views, and see the positive side of the presence of Polish Poles and Dutch Poles in the Netherlands. I come from a good Dutch family, was raised with Dutch values, tradition, etiquette, historical awareness and maybe a positive kind of patriotism, in a very tolerant, liberal democratic form. (Being proud of the Dutch achievements, but not feeling superior towards other Europeans like the Rightwing Populists, Neo-Nazi fringe and the other chauvinists - the guys who are not PVV or Neo-nazi, but who have simular views) In this traditional family there was respect for, interest in and a feeling of connection with the broader European perspective. My mother came from Poland, so there was the Polish connection. Next to the Dutchness or Dutch cultural upbringing there was the Polishness of the Polish family, we visited in Poland and who visited us in the Netherlands and in our Belgian vacation house in the Arden mountains. We made long mountain walks with my very strong Polish babcia (a Mauthausen survivor. Maybe that is why she was so strong, both mentally and physically). I was raised with the Polish history and partly with it's culture, music and language. (the language was always present in the background. The phone calls with Poland, and the visiting Polish family and friends and our holidays in Poland)
Next tot that there was the German, English and French language education and the interest in Italian, Spanish/Portugese and Slav cultures and heritages (Obviously the Polish one, but also the Czech/Bohemian and Russian ones, due to Polish history and the Russian and Bohemian influence in that history). So my Dutchness was enriched with a special kind of Polishness, the diaspora, genetic (50%), cultural and social Polishness of the historical, cultural and maybe sociological connection. I would not be present here on Polish forums if I did not had that connection. The strange thing is that I don't speak Polish and do not have regular contacts with Poles, but that the feeling of connection and desire for Poland stays. What is that desire? That is simply Polish soil. For me it is special to cross the German border and be in Poland. That is differant than being on German, Dutch, South-African or American soil. It has something more. There is a history, a genetic past there. Ancestors lived, studied and worked in various parts of Poland (clear is that they were present in West-Poland - Pozan region, Eastern Poland and Southern Poland).

Most people in the Netherlands don't know Poland or Poles, they have (probably) never been there. They don't have Slav connections, don't know much about Dutch history, European history and in that respect Polish history and the Polish participation in European development, sciences and developments. Probably many people don't know much about the Polish role in the Second world war and the Polish participation in the liberation of the Netherlands in 1944 and 1945.
Many older Dutch people or people with historical awareness remember that and in that perspective are (deeply) ashamed about the anti-Polish hotline, propaganda and thus activities of Wilders PVV. The negative aspects of the Polish presence is exaggerated in their view and the positive Polish input ignored or neglected. Poles work hard in the Netherlands and they contribute to the Dutch economy, the Dutch society and culture, because they do the work the Dutch don't want to do, or in other cases do the work better than Dutch workers would do it. Employers like (love) Polish construction workers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, bricklayers, plasterers, house painters and decorators and last but not least truckdrivers and truck repair man. If you see Dutch trucks on Dutch, German or Polish highways there is probably a Polish truckdriver in it. The Dutch employers are not only irritated, frustrated and ashamed about the PVV hotline for Central- and East-Europeans, they simply find it totally irrealistic, stupid and counterproductive. They have to accept less skilled and experianced Dutch personel, due to population ageing, bad or lack of technical education in the Netherlands (the technical professions are not popular. They simply prefer the more motivated, more experianced, better skilled and dedicated Polish workers and professionals. THE DUTCH UNEMPLOYED DON"T WANT TO DO THESE JOBS, THEY RATHER PREFER TO STAY UNEMPLOYED THAN TO DO FACTORY WORK, CONSTRUCTION WORK OR HOUSE REPAIR JOBS. OFCOURSE YOU HAVE MANY DUTCH WHO DO THE SAME WORK AS THE POLES AND COOPERATE WITH THEM -POLISH AND DUTCH CONSTRUCTION WORKERS AND AGENTS WORKING TOGETHER, THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM-. BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THERE ARE SIMPLY TO LESS SKILLED AND EDUCATED DUTCH CONSTRCUCTION WORKERS, TECHNICIANS, BUT ALSO NURSES, TRUCKDRIVERS AND ETC. AND POLISH WOMEN AND MEN LOVE TO TAKE THESE VACANT JOBS IN THE NETHERLANDS, THEY ARE NEEDED AND THEY LIKE LIVING AND WORKING IN THE NETHERLANDS DESPITE THE HOTLINE AND THE HOSTILITY OF SOME OF MY COMPATRIOTS. THEY HAVE GOOD CONTACTS WITH DUTCH PEOPLE AND HAVE ALWAYS POLISH COMPATRIOTS FOR THEIR SOCIAL LIFE, CHURCH COMMUNITY AND SOCIAL GROUP CULTURE.

Dutch People don't want dirty hands and jobs with a low status, and therefor Dutch employers love the experianced, skilled, dedicated, loyal and hard working Poles. That is probably what you don't hear in the Polish news? The Dutch who are fond of, like or love the Poles. I have experianced debates between anti-Polish compatriots and Pro-Polish compatriots. These Pro-Polish Dutchmen were from all social backgrounds, workers in a printerfirm (who had good experiances with Poles in their village), Agent (economics) ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_(economics) ), students (who have Polish colleages/fellow students), people with Polish partners (mostly Dutch men with Polish girlfriends or wives), local or regional politicians. In regions with population decline and thus population ageing, there are very few young people. In Roman Catholic Southern area's in Limburg they hope that the settlement of young "Roman Catholic" Polish families will be good for the future of the region (new blood, new children, a future for villages and towns). The Dutch situation must be a contradictio in terminis for you. It is a complex and difficult situation. I hope that in the near future there will be more understanding, compassion and interest between the two nations, because we have longer historical ties than most Dutch and Poles realize.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanza
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olędrzy


A windmill in Palczewo – one of the remnants of Olęder settlements in Żuławy

[pjotr]

The Backgroud of Dutch Populism and Polonophobia

The Cold war split our continent in two half parts and the Iron Curtain created distance and alienation. Sometimes I think the less educated people, the masses can't get rid of the old stereotype of the East-European. They say East-European overhere, because to distinguish between Central-European (Pole, Czech, Slowak and East-German), and Eastern-European (the people of the Russian Federation west from the Ural [European Russia], Ukraine, Belarus, Kazachstan [European part, European Kazachstan], Moldavia [with it's Rumanian, Ukrainian, Russian and Turkic people], the European part of Azerbaidzjan, the European part of Georgia and the European part of Armenia) is to complicated and requires historical awareness and an interest in the matter. Nuance is not part of their skills or tact.

When you see that the "West-Germanic" Dutch often already have or had difficulties with the Franconian or Latin French and Wallons (differant language, differant culture, differant cuisine, differant way of dressing [clothes] and differant shaped people -the French are dark, slender, and have the latin elegance or style), because in Dutch (or Flemish) point of view, the French and Wallons are arrogant, unreliable, too easy going (comparered with the serious, stolid, sober and pragmatic Dutch, in the sense that the Dutch like to see themselves as such). The eighty years war with Spain settled maybe something in the Dutch gene that the Southern is barbaric, crual and tough, but in the same time the Dutch love Spain and Portugal like all Northern-Europeans love Mediterranean Southern-Europe. Today Greece is seen as a sort of country of "Christian Turks", a primitive country with lazy people who live from European benefits. Italians are ofcourse like the stereoptypes of Italians we know from French, American and British movies. Hot tempered, dramatic, irrational and criminal (maffia) people, and they have good cars, food (Pizza's, Pasta and etc.), music (those sentimental Dutch people who love Italians singers and German schlager).
I don't want to talk about the Non-European immigration here, because that will be to painful, it is clear that the common Dutch are not so fond of Moroccans, Turks and other Muslim migrants, and in the same time non-Muslim non western immigrants too.

In the same time there are stil people who aren't fond of Germans, because they don't like the German language or stil are stuck in the war time thinking, those damn Kraut (Mof in Dutch and Boche in French) or non-Dutch foreigners in general. But these people are really a minority, because the Dutch in general are directed towards the outside world and like to have contact with foreigners.

In such climate people like Frits Bolkestein emerged in the final eightees and early ninetees after the collapse of the Communist system in Central- and Eastern-Europe.

During the 1990s, Bolkestein was very successful as the political frontman of the VVD. As an opinion leader, he was known for his daring and controversial positions on such issues as multicultural problems in Dutch society, political dualism between government and parliament, and the structure and expansion of the European Union. From 1990–1994 he was the parliamentary opposition leader and continued his outspoken and independent style when his party was part of the government from 1994. During the regional elections of 1995, his criticism of Dutch immigration policies made his party the largest of the country.

He was president of the Liberal International, the world federation of liberal political parties. Since Autumn 2004, he has been a professor at the Dutch universities of Leiden and Delft. Former Irish finance minister Charlie McCreevy succeeded him as Commissioner for the Internal Market.
He is also preparing a book on the influence of intellectuals on political life.
He authored a number of books on politics and related subjects. Frits Bolkestein is married to Femke Boersma, a retired Dutch actress. In 2005, his house in northern France had its electricity cut briefly by the local energy company after he criticized French protectionist measures against incoming electricians from Eastern Europe.

In “Het Verval” (The Decline), a book about Jews in the Netherlands written by Manfred Gerstenfeld, a Holocaust survivor and senior researcher at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Bolkestein is quoted as having said that practicing Jews had no future in the Netherlands, due to anti-semitism among Turkish and particularly Moroccan immigrants, and that they should emigrate to the US or Israel. Bolkestein's remarks, after having been published in a Dutch newspaper, raised a storm of criticism in December 2010. According to Ronny Naftaniel, head of the Jewish organisation CIDI, this was not the first time Bolkestein has expressed this view.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frits_Bolkestein
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyrektywa_Unii_Europejskiej_o_usługach_na_rynku_wewnętrznym

Geert Wilders connection to Bolkestein

Geert Wilders (born September 6, 1963 in Venlo) is a Dutch right-wing politician and leader of the Party for Freedom (Partij voor de Vrijheid – PVV), the third-largest political party in the Netherlands. He is the Parliamentary group leader of his party in the Dutch House of Representatives. In the formation in 2010 of the current Rutte cabinet, a minority cabinet of VVD and CDA, he actively participated in the negotiations, resulting in a "support agreement" (gedoogakkoord) between the PVV and these parties. Wilders is best known for his criticism of Islam, summing up his views by saying, "I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam".
Raised a Roman Catholic, Wilders left the church at his coming of age. His travels to Israel as a young adult, as well as to neighbouring Arab countries, helped form his political views. Wilders worked as a speechwriter for the conservative-liberal People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie – VVD), and later served as parliamentary assistant to party leader Frits Bolkestein from 1990 to 1998. He was elected to the Utrecht city council in 1996, and later to the House of Representatives. Citing irreconcilable differences over the party's position on the accession of Turkey to the European Union, he left the VVD in 2004 to form his own party, the Party for Freedom.

Wilders has campaigned to stop what he views as the "Islamisation of the Netherlands". He compares the Quran with Mein Kampf and has campaigned to have the book banned in the Netherlands. He advocates ending immigration from Muslim countries, and supports banning the construction of new mosques. Wilders was a speaker at the Facing Jihad Conference held in Jerusalem in 2008, which discussed the dangers of jihad, and has called for a hard line against what he called the "street terror" exerted by minorities in Dutch cities. His controversial 2008 film about his views on Islam, Fitna, received international attention. He has been described in the media as populist and labeled far right, though this is disputed by other observers. Wilders, who has refused to align himself with other European far-right leaders such as Jean-Marie Le Pen and Jörg Haider, views himself as a right-wing liberal and has expressed concern of being "linked with the wrong rightist fascist groups."


Wilders started off his political development under his mentor, Frits Bolkestein

The Ideology of Fortuynism

The ideology or political style that is derived from Pim Fortuyn, and in turn the LPF, is often called Fortuynism. Observers variously saw him as a political protest targeting the alleged elitism and bureaucratic style of the Dutch purple coalitions or as offering an appealing political style. The style was characterized variously as one "of openness, directness and clearness", populism or simply as charisma. Another school holds Fortuynism as a distinct ideology, with an alternative vision of society. Some argued that Fortuynism was not just one ideology, but contained liberalism, populism and nationalism.

During the 2002 campaign, Fortuyn was accused of being on the "extreme right", although others saw only certain similarities. While he employed anti-immigration rhetoric, he was neither a radical nationalist nor a defender of traditional authoritarian values. On the contrary, Fortuyn wanted to protect the socio-culturally liberal values of the Netherlands, women's rights and sexual minorities, from the "backward" Islamic culture. The LPF also won support from some ethnic minorities; one of Fortuyn's closest associates was of Cape Verdean origin, and one of the party's MPs was a young woman of Turkish descent.

Foreign policy

Although the LPF was established post-9/11, Fortuyn had already developed a worldview based on the "clash between civilizations"; namely between "modernity" and Islam, or Western society and Islamic culture. The LPF supported NATO, but was eurosceptic and saw the European Union as a "bureaucracy which barely interests its citizens, let alone inspires them." The party did however not oppose the project of European integration in general, but rather its present organization, lack of democracy and threat to national sovereignty. The LPF also believed that the European Union "shouldn't cross the Bosporus and the Ural," opposing the full membership of Turkey, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia.

Pim Fortuyn is dead and the LPF is gone, but who inherited it's ideology, Fortuynism, yes, Geert Wilders and his PVV. He learned of the mistakes of Fortuyn and the LPF and created a better and longer lasting version of Fortuynism, the PVV party ideology.

Fortuyn's political heritage scattered among various politicians, many of which were not successful. These include Marco Pastors, leader of the One NL, and Hilbrand Nawijn, leader of the Party for the Netherlands; none of which managed to win a seat in the 2006 election. More importantly however, the party had been squeezed out by the tougher line on immigration issues by mainstream politicians such as Minister for Integration and Immigration Rita Verdonk, who largely adopted Fortuyn's policies. By the end of the decade, former LPF supporters had mostly moved to support Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedom (PVV).

Links:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Madlener
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleur_Agema
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livable_Rotterdam
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Sørensen
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Bontes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Kortenoeven
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joram_van_Klaveren
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teun_van_Dijck

P.S.- *We have probably Spanish or French blood in my Dutch family because we are unusually dark for Dutch people. My Dutch grandmother had black dark eyes and black hair, unusual in the Netherlands with it's blond, brunette and redhead people. And with her Southern-Dutch agricultural ancesters, my dark haired and dark eyed grandmother and father, must have that elements. In the South-Western Sea coast islands the farmer population there are very dark, short and slender, while the average Dutch is tall and firm built (broad figure) and light skinned and hair and eyes. These Zeelandish people my fathers family originates from have a lot of Spanish and French (Huegenot) blood, they are a mix of the original Dutch coast people and the newcommers from the South that moved upwards as soldiers (occupiers), as merchants, traders, refugees and settlers.

[pjotr]

The Calvinist Predestination theology has a great influence on Dutch history, culture and politics. I wonder if this somehow has an element in the Populistic ideology and political movements (LPF/PVV), because the leaders had/have catholic roots. (Fortuyn and Wilders)

The Calvinism is present in the politics of the Christian democratis, which movement in the Netherlands is half Protestant (Calvinist) Dutch reformed. Strangely enough the strongest opposition towards Geert Wilders comes from the "progressive" Protestant branch of the Christian democrats, while a support base for Wilders is his own "Roman Catholic" Limburg (which in the same time want Poles to populate the province). Again a contradictio in terminus situation.
Tufta, only part of the Christian Democrats start to sing the xenophobic song too, because there is fierce opposition in the ranks of the CDA, christian democratic party, against the cooperation with the PVV. That is one third of the CDA electorate and members. The CDA lost a lot of votes due to the cooperation with the PVV, and the losses were so dramatic that the party will stop being one of the large political parties and become a small party.

You always had a rightwing and a social leftwing in the Christian democratic movement. You have a christian union which is closely linked to the CDA. Ofcourse the present christian democratic leadership is part of the powergame of the present government. The game is to ignore the PVV provocations, actions and statements. The goal is to keep the PPV on board and maintain the rightwing minority government to avoid a future leftwing government or a VVD which might be forced to cooperate with the leftwing Populist SP (socialist party), which is growing very steadily at the expense of the PVV and the Labour opposition.


PVV-leader Geert Wilders, CDA-leader and Minister of Economic Affairs, Agriculture and Innovation Maxime Verhagen and VVD-prime minister Mark Rutte.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestynacja

[pjotr]

Feb 17, 2012 12:33:46 GMT 1 tufta said:

Feb 17, 2012 0:11:03 GMT 1 pjotr said:

Tufta and Bo,

Dit you hear about this rediculous, humiliating, dum and racist hotline/website in Poland?

Yes. What I am preoccupied with is Mark Rutte's deafening silence. I understand his government is weak, but by keeping silence he is weakening it further (in the long run he weakens own 'electoral supply base'). I've heard the Christian Democrats already start to sing the xenophobic song too. To tell the truth the traditional image Netherlands had in Poland is crumbling... Mark Rutte should take head oit of teh sand and firmly clear his FUNDAMENTAL position: does he (Netherlands he's representing) approve Dutch participation in the EU, part of which is accepting that EU citizens may travel and work whereever they want, or is he for... leaving the EU by the Netherlands.
The criminal, misbehaving Poles should be treated adequately by the local police and the penitenciary system, just as any other citizens. Anything else is heavily braeches the aggreed rules of coexistence inside teh Union. Geert Wilders can do what he wants - not so Netherlands, and thus it's PM.

All the best to you Pjotr. And have patience with this PVV. We have their kin in Poland, too...

Tufta,

Some of my compatriots are preoccupied with Mark Rutte's deafening silence too. But also other West-Europeans. Read this:

Dutch PM refuses to denounce anti-immigrant website


Mark Rutte campaigning for his VVD party

Pressure is mounting on Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte to publicly distance himself from a website, calling on citizens to file complaints about people from central and eastern Europe residing in the Netherlands.

Ambassadors from the ten central and eastern EU member states published a letter on Tuesday (14 February) strongly criticising the website, launched last week by the minority government’s key ally in parliament, the far-right Party for Freedom (PVV).

“We invite Dutch society and its political leaders to distance themselves from this condemnable initiative,” the letter said, qualifying the website as “undeniably discriminatory and degrading.”

Rutte’s fellow liberals in the European Parliament have also denounced the initiative and called on the prime minister to pronounce himself on the matter, something he has until now refused to do.

“Now that [the issue] has become public and ambassadors are sending a letter, I think that you cannot remain silent,” Guy Verhofstadt, leader of the liberals, told Dutch radio on Tuesday.


Guy Verhofstadt, leader of the liberals in the European parlaiment

The Belgian MEP said he “could only agree with Hans van Baalen,” delegation leader of Rutte’s VVD party in the European Parliament, who on Monday called the website “vulgar” and “nauseating”.


Hans van Baalen, delegation leader of Rutte’s VVD party in the European Parliament

Sophie in ‘t Veld, delegation leader of the liberal D66 party, called it a “repulsive initiative.” European Parliament president Martin Schultz raised the issue before opening this week’s plenary session in Strasbourg and promised to ask for clarifications from the Dutch prime minister.


Martin Schultz, president of the European Parliament


Sophie in ‘t Veld, delegation leader of the liberal D66 party

For its part, the European Commission has remained reluctant to go beyond a statement on Friday by EU justice commissioner Vivian Reding saying the website “runs totally counter to (European) principles.”


Vivian Reding, EU justice commissioner

On Tuesday it said that it is not up to the commission but to national governments to enforce the EU’s anti-discrimination laws.

Individually, however, other commissioners have also voiced concerns.

“European Commission concerned about new website by PVV in the Netherlands directed against EU citizens,” Cecilia Malmstroem, responsible for home affairs, tweeted on Sunday.


Cecilia Malmstroem, EU commissioner for home affairs

“A ridiculous idea,” wrote Dutch digital affairs commissioner Neelie Kroes and a long-time member of Rutte’s VVD party. “What next? Is your wife annoying you? Forget Valentine’s Day – log on and denounce her! Have you always disliked blonde hair? Denounce blondes!”


Neelie Kroes, the European Commission digital affairs commissioner

It wasn’t me

Rutte’s minority government survives by the grace of a political deal made with the PVV, which agreed to give parliamentary support on much of the government’s policy in turn for a hard stance on immigration.

The deal does not cover European affairs, however, for which the government needs support from opposition parties.

This is widely seen as behind Rutte’s refusal to denounce or even comment on the anti-immigrant website.

“I have made this very clear time and time again,” he told parliament in The Hague on Tuesday. “This is not a government initiative. It is an initiative of a political party and I refuse to comment on the behaviour of individual political parties.”

Opposition parties accused him of being weak and of looking away while he should be keeping the peace in the country. Rutte was previously more active when the PVV made controversial comments about the Muslim veil and about Turkey’s prime minister Recep Rayyip Erdogan.

But this time, Rutte countered that the website issue had grown out of proportion and people were exaggerating.

“Let’s not make it bigger than it is,” he said to jeers from the chamber. “I think it is unwise to jump all together on every piece of red meat that is thrown in the arena. That is what you are all doing right now.”

[tufta]

During last half an hour I received some 20 SMS from different contacts saying , more or less:
"Dutch PM refuses to react to dividing Europeans into better and worse. Boycott Dutch firms such as Shell, Heineken, Knorr, Lipton."

[Bonobo]

Feb 17, 2012 22:10:43 GMT 1 tufta said:

During last half an hour I received some 20 SMS from different contacts saying , more or less:
"Dutch PM refuses to react to dividing Europeans into better and worse. Boycott Dutch firms such as Shell, Heineken, Knorr, Lipton."

Ooops. And a renown Polish Euro parliament member called for boycot too.

wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/apel-polaka-bojkotujmy-holenderskie-produkty,1,5030776,wiadomosc.html

Two weeks ago I bought a DVD player (my first) made by Philips. I don`t regret my purchase and am not going to follow the boycott call - crazy right wingers are not all Holland. Peter and other decent Dutch guys also live there. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Even if I tried to boycott sth Dutch, I would have a big problem because

Feb 17, 2012 22:10:43 GMT 1 tufta said:

Boycott Dutch firms such as Shell, Heineken, Knorr, Lipton."

I don`t buy gas at Shell (there are cheaper stations) , I don`t drink Heineken (German like lagers are awful), I don`t eat instant soups (sorry, Knorr) and I don`t drink tea (sorry, Lipton).

Lipton is Dutch?

ooops, after checking news forum, I learnt which Dutch products are to be boycotted:

kocioo: Lista holenderskich produktów które nale¿y bojkotowaæ....
Dutch Lady – Milk/Diary Products
Ferrero Roche – Chocolate
Wall’s – Ice Cream
ING -Insurance
Planta -Margerine
Lady’s Choice -Margerine
Lipton -Tea
Shell -Petrol
Knorr -Food Additives
Dove -Bathiing
Sunlight -Magerine/Dishwasher Liquid
Radiant -Deodorant
Rexona -Deodorant
Ponds -Beauty Product
Kieldsens -Chocolate
Slimfast -Slimming Product
Lego -Raisin
Philips -Electrical Products
Duyvis -Junk Food
Gouda -Cheese
Robin -Floor/Apparels Cleaner
Ariel -Floor/Apparels Cleaner
Omo -Floor/Apparels Cleaner
Labello -Lip Balm
Pickwick -Tea
Venz -Chocolate Butter
Kinder Bueno -Chocolate
Unilever -All products
Dumex -Milk Powder
Nutricia -Baby Milk
Sunsilk -Shampoo
Fair & Lovely -Cosmetics
Lux -Bath/Shower Soaps
Vaseline -Lip Balm
Cif -Floor Detergent
Surf -Detergent
Wishbone -Detergent
Doriana -Cheese Cream
Bertolli -Cooking Oil
Clear -Shampoo
Breeze -Detergent
Sun -Detergent zwiñ

I see the situation is escalating like an avalanche. Europeans against Europeans? It is abnormal.

[pjotr]

Feb 17, 2012 22:10:43 GMT 1 tufta said:

During last half an hour I received some 20 SMS from different contacts saying , more or less:
"Dutch PM refuses to react to dividing Europeans into better and worse. Boycott Dutch firms such as Shell, Heineken, Knorr, Lipton."

Tufta,

If I was a Pole you would receive the 21th SMS from me with the same message. Rutte is typical a spineless powerpolitician, who will do nothing what would piss off or endanger the pact with Wilders. I can't wait until this government will be replaced. It does not matter, centre right or centre left, all governments must have a policy of cutbacks, less government spending and etc. I am not fond of the SP (socialists; leftwing populists), Labour (Social democrats) or other leftist or centre left parties (GroenLinks and the liberal D66), but I prefer them before this hostage cabinet Rutte. I am fed up with it, and I am half a Pole, and therefor I am insulted, humiliated and downgraded too. I still hope for a larger Pro-Polish or pan-European alliance in the Netherlands from employers, unions (unions helped Polish workers by the way), sensible politicians and civilians who have positive contact with Poles. We, the other Dutch are fed up with it!

The boycott of Dutch firms like Shell, Unilever products, Heineken, Knorr, Lipton, Akzo-Nobel products, Phillips, ABN-Amro, Randstadt, Fortis bank and etc. is the only way to let the Dutch society and government feel what the result of their actions or inaction is.

To be effective, Rumanians, Bulgarians, the Baltic states and other central- and eastern Europeans should support such a boycot.

Cheers,
Pieter

[pjotr]

Feb 17, 2012 23:10:10 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

Feb 17, 2012 22:10:43 GMT 1 tufta said:

During last half an hour I received some 20 SMS from different contacts saying , more or less:
"Dutch PM refuses to react to dividing Europeans into better and worse. Boycott Dutch firms such as Shell, Heineken, Knorr, Lipton."

Ooops. And a renown Polish Euro parliament member called for boycot too.

wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/apel-polaka-bojkotujmy-holenderskie-produkty,1,5030776,wiadomosc.html

Two weeks ago I bought a DVD player (my first) made by Philips. I don`t regret my purchase and am not going to follow the boycott call - crazy right wingers are not all Holland. Peter and other decent Dutch guys also live there. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Even if I tried to boycott sth Dutch, I would have a big problem because

Feb 17, 2012 22:10:43 GMT 1 tufta said:

Boycott Dutch firms such as Shell, Heineken, Knorr, Lipton."

I don`t buy gas at Shell (there are cheaper stations) , I don`t drink Heineken (German like lagers are awful), I don`t eat instant soups (sorry, Knorr) and I don`t drink tea (sorry, Lipton).

Lipton is Dutch?

ooops, after checking news forum, I learnt which Dutch products are to be boycotted:

kocioo: Lista holenderskich produktów które nale¿y bojkotowaæ....
Dutch Lady – Milk/Diary Products
Ferrero Roche – Chocolate
Wall’s – Ice Cream
ING -Insurance
Planta -Margerine
Lady’s Choice -Margerine
Lipton -Tea
Shell -Petrol
Knorr -Food Additives
Dove -Bathiing
Sunlight -Magerine/Dishwasher Liquid
Radiant -Deodorant
Rexona -Deodorant
Ponds -Beauty Product
Kieldsens -Chocolate
Slimfast -Slimming Product
Lego -Raisin
Philips -Electrical Products
Duyvis -Junk Food
Gouda -Cheese
Robin -Floor/Apparels Cleaner
Ariel -Floor/Apparels Cleaner
Omo -Floor/Apparels Cleaner
Labello -Lip Balm
Pickwick -Tea
Venz -Chocolate Butter
Kinder Bueno -Chocolate
Unilever -All products
Dumex -Milk Powder
Nutricia -Baby Milk
Sunsilk -Shampoo
Fair & Lovely -Cosmetics
Lux -Bath/Shower Soaps
Vaseline -Lip Balm
Cif -Floor Detergent
Surf -Detergent
Wishbone -Detergent
Doriana -Cheese Cream
Bertolli -Cooking Oil
Clear -Shampoo
Breeze -Detergent
Sun -Detergent zwiñ

I see the situation is escalating like an avalanche. Europeans against Europeans? It is abnormal.

Yes, the Dutch are dominant in the food processing industry, chemicals, financial products (insurance and banking) and house products (Unilever).

So the Poles must buy a lot of Procter & Gamble products now. ;D

[tufta]

Feb 17, 2012 23:57:34 GMT 1 pjotr said:

If I was a Pole you would receive the 21th SMS from me with the same message.

I know, Pjotr!

During the night almost 100 SMS arrived. They are exactly the same in content and the last words are: send to your contact. I didn't forward them yet, but it seems that's an avalanche indeed. I wonder who has started it. Was it Jacek Saryusz-Wolski himself?

[pjotr]

Feb 18, 2012 8:41:40 GMT 1 tufta said:

Feb 17, 2012 23:57:34 GMT 1 pjotr said:

If I was a Pole you would receive the 21th SMS from me with the same message.

I know, Pjotr!

During the night almost 100 SMS arrived. They are exactly the same in content and the last words are: send to your contact. I didn't forward them yet, but it seems that's an avalanche indeed. I wonder who has started it. Was it Jacek Saryusz-Wolski himself?

Tufta,

Very good news, I hope you will reach 200 or 300 SMS messages with the same message! The Dutch government, prime minister Rutte and the Dutch political elite (or system) and economy should wake up and see what the result is of their actions and inaction (of the oponents).

I wonder what will happen if all the Polish people who contribute to the Dutch economy would move to Germany, Belgium, GB and Poland. (Polish construction workers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, bricklayers, plasterers, house painters, decorators, conservators/resorators of buildings, sculptures and fine art - a Polish speciality in my view-, nurses, nanny's or au pairs, horeca personel, Polish businessmen and companies, truckdrivers and truck repair men , talented Polish students at Dutch universities and Institutes of technnology, who could have been great researchers, employee's and future managers or agents, and last but not least al those Poles who work in Dutch agriculture and horticulture. The farmers and horticulture entrepreneurs are fond of the Polish workers)

Cheers,
Pieter

[Bonobo]

The boycott isn`t a good solution. If Poles stop importing Dutch goods, labourers, including Polish job seekers, will lose jobs in Holland.

And the mutual resentment will continue to grow.


I didn't forward them yet, but it seems that's an avalanche indeed. I wonder who has started it. Was it Jacek Saryusz-Wolski himself?

Tufta, if it was him, it was very stupid. I thought he was wiser than that.

[pjotr]

Jacek Saryusz-Wolski



Jacek Saryusz-Wolski in the Hague at the headquarters of the Dutch Polonia (Polish Diaspora in the Netherlands) organisation.


Logo of the Portal Polonii Holenderskiej

Jacek Emil Saryusz-Wolski (born September 19, 1948 in Łódź) is a Polish diplomat, politician and a MEP: member of the European Parliament (elected on 13 June 2004). He served as Vice President of the European Parliament (2004–2007).

Scientific career

Jacek Saryusz-Wolski was a professor at the University of Łódź and an expert on European Communities since the 1970s.

Political career

Jacek Saryusz-Wolski was nominated the first Polish plenipotentiary for European integration and foreign aids (pełnomocnik ds. integracji europejskiej i pomocy zagranicznej) when this office was created in 1991 by the prime minister Jan Krzysztof Bielecki. Jacek Saryusz-Wolski held this position till 1996, despite the frequent government changes. He returned to the government in 2000, when the prime minister Jerzy Buzek has nominated him a secretary in the European Integration Committee (Komitet Integracji Europejskiej). Jacek Saryusz-Wolski played an extremely important role in the negotiations in Nice in 2000.
He was elected an MEP, on 13 June 2004, as a candidate of Civic Platform, in the constituency #6 (Łódź Voivodship) receiving 66,589 votes (that is 16,92%, the best result in the region). On 20 July 2004 he was elected a Vice President of the European Parliament, and was at the position till 16 January 2007.
In March 2006, Saryusz-Wolski was elected Vice President of the European People's Party (EPP) for a three-year term.

An article on the Dutch Polonia website:

Statement from EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding responding to aquestion put forward by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski, Member of the European Parliament 10.02.2012:

“In Europe, we stand for freedom. We stand for an open Continent where citizens can move, work and study wherever they like. The citizens of the 27 EU Member States should feel at home no matter where they decide to move.

The PVV’s website runs totally counter to these principles. It is openly calling for people to be intolerant.
Europe is facing difficult times. We will only solve our problems by increasing solidarity, not by denouncing fellow citizens.

We call on all citizens of the Netherlands not to follow this intolerance. Citizens should instead clearly state on the PVV’s website that Europe is a place of freedom. Intolerance has no place on our Continent.”

Link: www.polonia.nl/?p=7739

[pjotr]

Tufta and Bo,

It is very dangerous what I might say now, but I have to make this statement, because it is what I feel today, and what is personal too. As a person with a Dutch given name and Dutch family name I am not recognisable as someone with Polish blood or a partly central-European background. My given name though, Pavel, is Polish, and it is in my Dutch passport. My female colleage at work has a Polish given name and Polish family name. She is as Dutch as Germans with Polish names who are living there since the 19th century. We have no problems, but we do have problems with the negative stereoptypes, fellow compatriots who whisper or talk about those Poles as dangerous aliens, thieves, thugs and I don't know what else to mention. I don't say every time they talk to me that I have Polish roots, so sometimes I hear these stories of fellow Dutch people, who think that I am 100% ethnic Dutch too. That is the reason I sometimes hear these stories or rumors.

Again I have to say that I have to be careful of what to say and what to say not, because there are also Dutch who are positive about the Poles, Central-Europeans or Slavic people in general. But the Polonofobia or Slavophobia over here is a concern, and the racism or xenophobia against Rumanians and/or Bulgarians is terrible. The general view of Rumanians is like the racist view in some Central- and Eastern-European countries against Gypsies (Roma- and Sinti). Rumanians are seen as criminals (with criminal genes and criminal characters), thieves, rapists, murderers, frauds and in general unreliable, dangerous and not good people. You have to mentally arm yourself to be not infected by these stereotypical thinking, labeling and scapegoat searching mentalities.

What I want to say is that sometimes I have the impression that the Polonophobia and Islamophobia (directed against Moroccans and Turks) is simular and as degrading as the sinister old ghost of anti-semitism, which is deeply rooted in Europe and the world. (I have witnessed and experianced anti-semitism in hidden, subtle forms and in open vulgar, and conspiracy theory like statements of Dutch and Polish people in the Netherlands and Poland -during communism-).
The image created of Poles and other Central-Europeans and Eastern-Europeans reminds me of the way Christian anti-semitism, Czarist anti-semitism (the Protocols of the Elders of Zion), Nazi- antisemitism, Communist anti-semitism (Stalinism, and the Sovjet communism until the end in 1990), and the anti-semitism of today in Western-Europe, Central- and Eastern-Europe saw and labeled the European jews. The anti-polonism is a new form of aversion against a people, which is hard to describe and understand for people who are 100% or even 50% Polish. It is as irrational, vicious, degrading, humiliating, mean, low, irrational, fictional (in its false and twisted message) and insane as the old anti-semitism and xenophobia and racism against black people as we know it. You could describe it as racism of one white people against another branch of white people.

Anti-Polish sentiment

The terms Polonophobia, anti-Polonism, antipolonism and anti-Polish sentiment refer to a spectrum of hostile attitudes toward Polish people and culture. These terms apply to racial prejudice against Poles and people of Polish descent, including ethnicity-based discrimination and state-sponsored mistreatment of Poles and Polish citizens (including Polish Jews). This prejudice led to genocide during World War II, notably by the German Nazis and Ukrainian nationalists (UPA).

Anti-Polish sentiment often entails modern-day derogatory stereotyping and discrimination.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polish_sentiment
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antypolonizm

[Bonobo]

Feb 18, 2012 11:37:43 GMT 1 pjotr said:

fellow compatriots who whisper or talk about those Poles as dangerous aliens, thieves, thugs and I don't know what else to mention. But the Polonofobia or Slavophobia over here is a concern, and the racism or xenophobia against Rumanians and/or Bulgarians is terrible. The general view of Rumanians is like the racist view in some Central- and Eastern-European countries against Gypsies (Roma- and Sinti). Rumanians are seen as criminals (with criminal genes and criminal characters), thieves, rapists, murderers, frauds and in general unreliable, dangerous and not good people. You have to mentally arm yourself to be not infected by these stereotypical thinking, labeling and scapegoat searching mentalities.

It always happens that when borders are open, all lowlives and scum rush abroad and bad stereotypes are created about Central and Eastern Europeans based on their scandalous behaviour there.

It seems like a sad rule to me - thugs go first!

I perfectly realise that some Polish cattle is currently staying in Holland and they are spoiling the opinion for all decent Poles.

I think such sentiments will vanish sooner or later when Polish rabble dies out or becomes more civilised.

[pjotr]

Feb 18, 2012 11:52:36 GMT 1 Bonobo said:

Feb 18, 2012 11:37:43 GMT 1 pjotr said:

fellow compatriots who whisper or talk about those Poles as dangerous aliens, thieves, thugs and I don't know what else to mention. But the Polonofobia or Slavophobia over here is a concern, and the racism or xenophobia against Rumanians and/or Bulgarians is terrible. The general view of Rumanians is like the racist view in some Central- and Eastern-European countries against Gypsies (Roma- and Sinti). Rumanians are seen as criminals (with criminal genes and criminal characters), thieves, rapists, murderers, frauds and in general unreliable, dangerous and not good people. You have to mentally arm yourself to be not infected by these stereotypical thinking, labeling and scapegoat searching mentalities.

It always happens that when borders are open, all lowlives and scum rush abroad and bad stereotypes are created about Central and Eastern Europeans based on their scandalous behaviour there.

It seems like a sad rule to me - thugs go first!

I perfectly realise that some Polish cattle is currently staying in Holland and they are spoiling the opinion for all decent Poles.

I think such sentiments will vanish sooner or later when Polish rabble dies out or becomes more civilised.

Bo,

My personal experiance is differant. Yes, there are bad elements under the Polish, Bulgarian, Rumanian, Czech and Baltic immigrants who come to work here. But the vast majority is a group of hard working, disciplined people who simply do not have the time to cause trauble, because they get up early, prepare themselves for work, work long days, go back to their pensions, cook, relax, sleep and then another day comes with work. I saw them working, walking quietly along the street and shopping in Arnhem in my supermarktet, the Polish workers, and Estonian and Bulgarian workers. My neighbourhood is restored by Polish workers; carpenters, bricklayers, plasterers, house painters, decorators, plumbers and conservators. Old and dilapidated buildings and houses were restored, renovated and made like new by the Polish workers in my neighbourhood. Elsewhere in the province they work for farmers and horticulture companies. I sometimes hear old workers or young folks (who do not look very differant from young Dutch people) speak Polish in the streets of Arnhem or in my local supermarket I do my shopping. Sometimes there is a little bit of problems with communication between the Dutch personel and the Poles, but there are never major problems, conflicts or quarrels. When there are problems they are often between Poles. Conflicts between Polish workers, or relation problems between Polish couples. But most news about crime, relational conflicts and violence are about Dutch people themselves or other migrants which aren't Central- or Eastern-European, mostly Moroccan, Antillian (Caribbean) or Surinamese.

The irritation about Poles and other people from Central- and Eastern-Europe are often social and cultural in nature. The Dutch have an individualistic cultre and the Poles come here often as groups, and their social lives are in groups. They work together, live together and sometimes party together. Sometimes they drink to much, like young Dutch people, Dutch workers or Dutch students, who can cause trouble. Some Poles cause trouble due to alcoholism, mental problems and drugs abuse (a tiny, very tiny minority). Again the Poles are not differant than the average Dutch population that surrounds them.
In some places where the ethnic concentration of Poles or other work migrants is large the inconvenience is larger. For instance The Hague.

But again I want to stress that the possitive effect of the presence of the Poles is larger then the negative aspects of their presence. They are people like the Dutch people who surround them. They are far away from home and can be lonly after long days of hard labour. When they drink they can be more open and easy going, and that can go to far, like we have a real problem with the alcooholism and drugs abuse of the native Dutch population and other immigrants.

Fact is that the Dutch economy; agriculture and horticulture, construction firms, transport companies, health care and factories, need Polish workers, Polish skills, and Polish input.

Cheers,
Pieter

[tufta]

What strikes me is that Netherlands is a small country totally dependemt on international trade economically, it would seem the last thing it would wish is 'a bad name'.
I agree that among migrant workers the percentage of people which do not follow the social codes, the rabble as Bo calles them (but why cattle?) or misuing the social benefits system is more or less the same as in the rest of society. On the other hand for people like Wilders (were he frank and not cynically using some arising feelings for his political game) the migrant workers do not have to behave WORSE than local population in order to form or enforce silly prejudice and use it.

[tufta]

Polish cattle

'Polish red' is the name

[pjotr]

Feb 19, 2012 7:56:41 GMT 1 tufta said:

What strikes me is that Netherlands is a small country totally dependemt on international trade economically, it would seem the last thing it would wish is 'a bad name'.
I agree that among migrant workers the percentage of people which do not follow the social codes, the rabble as Bo calles them (but why cattle?) or misuing the social benefits system is more or less the same as in the rest of society. On the other hand for people like Wilders (were he frank and not cynically using some arising feelings for his political game) the migrant workers do not have to behave WORSE than local population in order to form or enforce silly prejudice and use it.

Exactly Tufta, the Netherlands as a small country is totally dependent on international trade economically. It should not wish 'a bad name' abroad. Maybe the Dutch government, political elite from the right (VVD, PVV and CDA) and large part of the society don't realize the consequences of their actions or inactions, like a spoiled child can't understand the wealth and prosperity it is living in, compared with other children. It is hard to describe this phenomenon or the present circumstances in the Netherlands. From the left and centre left and the moderate, descent, sophisticated and civilized Centre-right (part of the businessworld, some of the centre-right intellectuals, journalists, scientists and commentators) there is a deep sense of frustration, irritation and grudge against the PVV and the VVD-CDA government which is held hostage by the rightwing, National chauvinist, Populist PVV. The PVV and its followers themselves held a deep grudge against the left and central left in general. They hate the leftwing and centre-left parties and the moderate (centre-) right, openly label and attack immigrants, and are allergic for the press and media, because in their view journalists are leftwing. The PVV by the way is not a democratic movement. It is a movement with one member, Geert Wilders, because Wilders don't want internal discussion, a democratic party structure which would weaken his grip on "the movement". So the PVV has a lot of voters and supporters, but no other members than Geert Wilders. The ideology of the PVV is Anti-Islam, Conservative liberal, Right-wing populist (with a mix of right- and leftwing Populist views), National conservative and Eurosceptic. The PVV came second in the 2009 European Parliament election, winning 4 out of the 25 Dutch seats. In the 2010 general election it won 24 seats, making it the third largest party. Since then, the PVV has agreed to support the minority government of Mark Rutte, without having ministers in the cabinet.

I don't know if among migrant workers the percentage of people which do not follow the social codes or who misuse the social benefits system is more or less the same as in the rest of society. Because the Dutch know their social security system very well. Many Poles don't know the language and communicate in German, English or Polish with other Poles they work with or Polish contractors. But some Poles who are longer in the Netherlands do speak Dutch (with the charming Polish accent ). Poles were helped by Duthc unions and some Local Dutch authorities, who acted against exploitation and corruption of some employers and contractors. (Tufta, sometimes there is a huge differance between local and national politics. For instance a local mayor of Rutte's VVD party, with a muncipality with a lot of Poles and a population who has nothing against the Poles, leads an action in his muncipality against the anti-Polonism. The anti-Polish campaign of the PVV - the hotline- irritated the VVD mayor. Poles are welcome in my muncipality, was his message. He was interviewed on the Dutch national eight 'o clock evening news. He said that he knew that he did act differantly then the VVD prime minister, but that he as a convinced liberal man could not act otherwise. He and the people of his muncipality are not happy with the hostile atmosphere and actions against their Polish fellow citizens. Dutch people on the street of the town were interviewed about their Polish fellow citizens. Not one of them held any grudge against the Poles or disliked the Poles. There was no pressure on them. Dutch people can speak freely and often, most often you have two opposite reactions, or three opinions if Dutch citizens are questioned on the street. This mayor is an example of the moderate centre right I mentioned above here. There are more VVD and CDA politicians, mayors, alderman like him.).
Tufta, Geert Wilders is an isolated man, who has 24 hours body guard protection, and who lives in the very disciplined and closed world of his PVV party, in which he is the leader and in which people follow him. In the also heavily protected and guarded Dutch parliament he survives with provocations, attacks, slurs against colleages and government members (ministers who aren't tough enough on immigration or do not agree with PVV ideas), and in his view the migrant workers DO behave WORSE than the local Dutch native population. In that order he forms or enforces his prejudice against them and he uses it quite succesfully. His party grew a few seats this weak in the Polls. "The masses" react! Dutch Labour dropped a few seats. Did Labour voters went to the PVV or to the leftwing Populist oponent SP?
It is typical Wilders policy to cynically use some arising feelings for his own political game.

In the Dutch magazine HP/De Tijd profile dated December 2006, Geert Wilders PVV party was described as a cult, with an extremely distrustful Wilders only accepting fellow candidates completely loyal to him, and compared to the Socialist Party led by Jan Marijnissen but without reaching that degree of organisational perfection

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Wolności_(Holandia)
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivo_Opstelten
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rutte
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxime_Verhagen
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Rosenthal

The leftwing Populist Socialist Party is growing too
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Socjalistyczna_(Holandia)

Polish press:
wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114881,3752003.html
wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114873,11158513,_FAZ___Wilders_zrobil_z_Polakow_kozlow_ofiarnych.html

[pjotr]

Anti-Pole website boosts PVV fortunes, Labour slide continues

Sunday 19 February 2012

A website set up by the anti-immigration PVV where people can list problems they've experienced with central and eastern European nationals, appears to have boosted the party's popularity, according to the latest Maurice de Hond opinion poll.

The poll, published every Sunday, says the PVV would win 24 seats if there was a general election tomorrow, up four on a week ago.

An earlier poll by De Hond showed while 55% of the population at large do not approve of the website, just 5% of PVV voters think it is a bad idea.

Labour

Labour (PVDA), by contrast, is down three seats at 14 following a flurry of reports about divisions within the party about its direction.

In an interview by party leader Job Cohen and party chairman Hans Spekman to newspaper Trouw (progressive Protestant Christian newspaper) last week, the two highlighted the number of similarities between the PvdA and the Socialist Party. This led some commentators to conclude the party planned a shift to the left.

Cohen's popularity is also in decline, the De Hond poll shows. Some 63% of Labour voters do not think he will lead the party much longer and 45% want a new leader now.

The SP continues to lead the De Hond poll, adding one seat to 33.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_Cohen
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_de_Hond

[tufta]

Pjotr, what turn would Dutch politics take if Rutte's government would loose PVV support?

[pjotr]

Poles say the PVV website is discriminatory

Sunday 19 February 2012

Some 85% of 540 Polish nationals questioned about a complaints website set up by the anti-immigration PVV think it is discriminatory, Trouw reports at the weekend.

The website, launched last week, asks people to report problems with central and eastern Europeans, and juxtaposes its poll next to newspaper headlines such as 'Eastern Europeans, increasingly criminal'.

In addition, 83% of those questioned think the Netherlands is less tolerant than they had expected. The poll was carried out for television current affairs show Debat op 2.

A DutchNews.nl poll of over 2,000 people shows almost 70% of its readers think the prime minister should take a stand against the PVV website, while 16% think the issue will damage the reputation of the Netherlands abroad.

The prime minister has so far refused to comment on the site, saying it is a matter for the PVV.

© DutchNews.nl

[pjotr]

Feb 19, 2012 13:16:46 GMT 1 tufta said:

Pjotr, what turn would Dutch politics take if Rutte's government would loose PVV support?

Tufta,

The Dutch politics and Dutch government policies would turn from rightwing (present) to centre-left or left. Like Poland the Dutch political system is complicated due to the many political parties represented in parlaiment, internal differances and partywings in the larger political parties (Labour -PvdA-, CDA -Christian-democrats-, VVD -conservative liberals- and even the PVV itself - there is a democratic fraction within the PVV which want internal party democracy, partymembership for supporters and a youth movement -something that Geert Wilders opposes vehemently-). The CDA is minimalized, and will lose votes due to furious and appalled Dutch reformed, Roman Catholic and Unionist christian democrats, who raised a storm of protest against the cooperation with the PVV in 2010 and 2011. These votes can go to the smaller Christian party, Christian Union (a Protestant party, who has also Catholic voters, who think that the christian and biblical influence in the secular state the Netherlands is to small, and because there is no Roman Catholic party). Labour (PvdA) loses votes to the leftwing Populist SP and to the rightwing Populist PVV, due to a weak leadership of Job Cohen and the inheritance of past inpopular participation in government coalitions ( pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czwarty_rząd_Jana_Petera_Balkenende / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Kok_cabinet / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Kok_cabinet ).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Dutch_cabinet_formation

[pjotr]

My favorite government coalition would be a moderate centre-left Purple plus coalition of the VVD (Dutch PO), Labour, GreenLeft and the liberal-democratic D66. That would be a moderate Centrist coalition. (But I fear that that option has to less votes to be an option, with the huge Socialist Party, SP, with 33 seats, and the second largest party, the VVD with 31 seats)



Purple (government)

Purple is a common term in politics for governments or other political entities consisting of parties that have red and blue as their political colours. It is of particular note in two areas: in the politics the Netherlands and Belgium and in the politics of the United States.

The Netherlands and Belgium

The Dutch purple parties VVD, PvdA (Labour) and D66 (=Democrats 1966) + GroenLinks (Greenleft)
"Purple" (Dutch: Paars) is the nickname of a government coalition of social democrats and liberals together, excluding Christian democrats. It is derived from the combination of the colour of the social democrats (red) and (conservative) liberals (blue).
Both the Netherlands and Belgium have had such governments. In the Netherlands the two cabinets of Prime Minister Wim Kok (Kok I and Kok II) were composed of social democrats (the Labour Party, PvdA), progressive liberals (Democrats 66) and conservative liberals (People's Party for Freedom and Democracy, VVD).
In the 2010 Dutch cabinet formation the possibilities for a Purple-plus cabinet (PvdA, VVD, D66 and GreenLeft) was investigated.
In Belgian politics, the term is used as a term for the two federal governments of Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt (a conservative liberal), from 1999 to the general elections of 2007. These cabinets consisted two social-democratic parties (the Flemish SP.A and the Wallon PS) and two liberal parties (Flemish Liberals and Democrats and the wallon Liberal Reformist Party, which later became Reformist Movement). The first government also included the green parties Agalev (Flemish) and Ecolo (Wallon).

United States

In the United States, a "purple" state is one where popular support for the Republican Party (red) and Democratic Party (blue) is approximately equal; such states, in elections for the President of the United States, are termed "swing states" and are highly-targeted on account of the Electoral College system of electing the President.
Since the system of first-past-the-post voting generally ensures that either one party or the other has an absolute majority in a legislative chamber, coalitions between the two parties are naturally rather rare. However, a "purple" coalition between the Democrats and dissident Republicans has controlled the Alaska Senate since 2006.

Development of the political preference of the Dutch voters since the start of the Cabinet Rutte

A graph of a function of the present Dutch political situation in the polls. (Date: Sunday, Frebruari 19, 2012. Source Peil.nl)


If you look at the map unfortunately there could be another monster coalition of the VVD (31 seats), the leftwing populist SP (33 seats) and for instance Labour (PvdA) (13 seats) (. That option would mean a sharp turn to the left, because Labour moved to the left too. That would be not so good for the Dutch economy and for the social-cultural stability of the country. The leftwing Populist SP also has a heritage of xenophobia and discrimination towards foreign workers and immigrants. The party, with a Maoist past represents the Dutch worker, has a history of anti-establishment (political elite, moderate social democratic social liberalism, Euro and Europe in general) and you could say there is an element of *Leftwing nationalism or progressive patriotism in the party. The party has also a history of anti-polonist propaganda and action (long before the PVV started it). Probably there are Maoist, old Stalinist Marxist-Leninist elements who dislike(d) the Polish opposition towards communism and socialism during the cold war, and the succes of the Polish pope and Solidarnosc and KOR in that. Remember that the Maoists were the longest supporters or followers of Stalinism. The terrible Hoxhaism (the Albanian branch of Maoisim and Stalinism [initiated by Enver Hoxha]) was one of the pillars of the old ideology of the SP. In the past we called them overhere the red jehova witnesses or the anti's. They were know as the anti-party, because they opposed everything in the parlaimentarian Dutch system just for the reason to be against it. Ofcourse the SP is not a Maoist party anymore today, and probably most members, parlaimentarians, voters and supporters don't remember or have anything in common with the Maoist SP of the seventees and early eightees. A lot of the new SP membership and even politicians are old Labour and **Greenleft politicians and members. (** the former Pacifistic socialists and communists of Greenleft)
But I just wanted to stress that history and the roots of that leftwing Populist and leftwing nationalist party. Compatriots of mine would probably oppose or fight my opinion about this. I am sure of that!

Cheers,
Pieter

Links:
* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_nationalism
Left-wing nationalism describes a form of nationalism officially based upon equality, popular sovereignty, and national self-determination. It has its origins in the Jacobinism of the French Revolution. Left-wing nationalism typically espouses anti-imperialism. It stands in contrast to right-wing nationalism, and has often rejected racist nationalism and fascism, although minor forms of left-wing nationalism have included intolerance and racial prejudice. (an example of intolerant and racial prejudiced leftwing nationalism is the Dutch Socialist party, the SP. In the same time there are very tolerant, anti-facist SP people, who reject racist nationalism, even in it's SP form. I call them SP dissidents. One of them is my friend. He does not vote SP anymore, after I opened his eyes, and he saw the politics of the SP in our muncipality. Leftwing and social in the opposition, and now they rule they are rightwing, populistic and in bed with the VVD, in Arnhem. ).

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Ludowa_na_rzecz_Wolności_i_Demokracji
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partia_Pracy_(Holandia)
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apel_Chrześcijańsko-Demokratyczny
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/D66

Alexander Pechtold a fierce oponent of Geert Wilders
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pechtold

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/GroenLinks
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChristenUnie

Politics in the Netherlands

Politics in the Netherlands is often opportunistic, ambivalent (dualistic, in the sense of a hidden agenda -without even speaking about conspiracy theories or corruption-), procrastinate, short term directed, directed by short term political hypes or news events, populist view of "the Gesundes Volskempfinden" (the popular sentiment among the masses -native working class and middle class-) (under the influence of Pim Fortuyn's Fortuynism, Geert Wilders PVV ideology and the leftist populism of the SP),complicated due to the complicated political debate, very difficult coalition building and tensions between the "national interests" and "International interests" (foreign policies) of the Netherlands. It seems that under the influence of Fortuynism, Geert Wilders PVV and the leftwing nationalism of the SP the Netherlands is more looking inwards than towards the outside world. I wouldn't say that it is an autarkic, isolationalist or closed political form of democracy, but due to pillarisation and the fact that minorities had to coap with eachother, the fact is that there is never a strong central rule. That changes ofcourse when political powers become very big and influential like the PvdA, social democracy, after the second world war, in the seventees, eightees and ninetees, the Christian democracy during the 20th century and the new Populistic movements in the 21th century. How long will this Dutch Populist branch of the European Populist family stay strong, dominant and influential? I know that this rightwing, national chauvinistic Populist movements are strong in France, Russia and Hungary, Switserland and Denmark too.

The only consolation or relief is the fact that we have many democratic political parties, that the Dutch are individualistic and stubborn people, and that real totalitarian forces, parties or movements will not last long, because the individualistic Dutch will be fed up with them easily. And that is the big danger or threat to Geert Wilders. The fact that one day the Dutch will be fed up with him and his ideology. That his doctrine, his dogmatic thinking and ideology does not fit with the pragmatic, liberal and realistic thinking Dutch voters. He is much to stif, stubborn, to much a loner to have a long term general interest in mind. In that perspective he is the same as the murdered Dutch Populist Pim Fortuyn. To self-centred, self-obsorbed and maybe to vain and perhaps to Narcistic to make political deals and to share power. In the Netherlands like in Poland in the political arena you have to negociate, make concessions, cooperate and share power with other parties and politicians. The Netherlands is not the USA, Great Britain or Russia.

Links:
Fortuynism
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn

Other links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesundes_Volksempfinden