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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 19:13:59 GMT 1
Dear Quasimodo, I hope you won`t object to moving our interesting discussion here, where we can talk freely, without any intrusion of posts not concerning the subject matter. So, let us recapitulate how it started. In the thread Easter Traditions I showed a few Polish Easter customs. One of them was going to the cemetery and decorating graves and tombs with flowers etc.    And your answer was Hi Bonobo, the pictures are really good and it is nice that people do these sort of things, but the whole idea of Easter makes me cringe, firstly Easter is a totally Pagan festival, even the name Easter comes from the Greek Eostre, it is all about fertility, not meaning to have a go at anyones religieon here, but wasn't Jesus crucified at Passover?? the word Easter only appears in the Bible in one place in Acts 12. and that is a mistranslation of the Greek word Pashca, all 28 other times it is translated Pashca?? which means passover. and of course the flower sellers are out in force:) lots of money to be made, which could go to feed the homeless. I don't mean to be rude buuttt the dead don't appreciate the flowers, I am sure the hungry would appreciate the food or a bed for the night. Ok I know traditions are nice and all that but I am sure I read the words of Jesus somewhere in the Bible where he says, feed my sheep, not decorate churches and buy flowers for the dead. please don't be offended by my words they are just my opinion:) and I just love to talk about the Bible:) I would love to hear everyones opinion:) don't forget George Orwell said, there is no freedom unless Ideas and Beliefs can be questioned!! lol all |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 19:18:41 GMT 1
My reply: Hi Bonobo, the pictures are really good and it is nice that people do these sort of things, It was one of the topics at the oral English exam in my school. The proper answer is: people observe traditions to have a chance to be together, to feel they belong to a certain community. Being a member of a social group makes people feel safe and happy. All this is true. Many Easter customs have their roots in pagan times. When Christianity spread all over Europe, it ran into traditional beliefs of pagan Germans, Celts and Slavs. E.g., painted eggs were symbols of life before christianity. The oldest painted eggs found in excavations in Poland go back as early as 9 century AD. Polish śmigus dyngus, splashing women with water, also belongs to preslavic beliefs, as water was considered a symbol of fertility. Even Palm Sunday isn`t purely Christian because pagan Slavs used to go to holy groves and bring twigs home. Today` s bunny was a Celtic belief. But, does it change much? If we consider the difficulties that Christianity had to overcome to be accepted by pagans in Europe, then it is easier for us to understand that pagan customs had to be adopted and sort of adapted into the new religion. If they weren`t, nobody would have converted, or it would have taken much more time and blood than it actually did. All in all, I have nothing against remnants of old pagan customs in today`s Easter. People have no idea that painting eggs was practised by prechristian tribes. What people know and want to celebrate is Eucharyst, The Crucifixion, and other things connected with Jesus. Yes, money could be given out to homeless. However, did you think about florists? What about them? When we stop buying flowers from them, they will also become homeless. In this way we can finish off any group of people. E.g., one day all people decide not to use taxis - they can go on foot or drive their own cars. In result, all taxi-drivers will go on a dole. Unfortunately, here we come across another pagan custom - honouring one`s dead. It is really widespread in Poland. However, it is a price that Christianity had to pay in order to win the hearts and souls of old pagan Slavs. If Slavs had been forbidden to decorate the graves with flowers, the prophets and missionaries of the new religion would have had hard time in preSlavic Poland. I think nobody is offended. Good, we can talk about the Bible. There are never too many opportunites to do it. Freedom of speech is the main prerogative of this forum. |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 19:24:10 GMT 1
Your reply Why do people have traditions? It was one of the topics at the oral English exam in my school. The proper answer is: people observe traditions to have a chance to be together, to feel they belong to a certain community. Being a member of a social group makes people feel safe and happy. All this is true. Many Easter customs have their roots in pagan times. When Christianity spread all over Europe, it ran into traditional beliefs of pagan Germans, Celts and Slavs. E.g., painted eggs were symbols of life before christianity. The oldest painted eggs found in excavations in Poland go back as early as 9 century AD. Polish śmigus dyngus, splashing women with water, also belongs to preslavic beliefs, as water was considered a symbol of fertility. Even Palm Sunday isn`t purely Christian because pagan Slavs used to go to holy groves and bring twigs home. Today` s bunny was a Celtic belief. But, does it change much? If we consider the difficulties that Christianity had to overcome to be accepted by pagans in Europe, then it is easier for us to understand that pagan customs had to be adopted and sort of adapted into the new religion. If they weren`t, nobody would have converted, or it would have taken much more time and blood than it actually did. All in all, I have nothing against remnants of old pagan customs in today`s Easter. People have no idea that painting eggs was practised by prechristian tribes. What people know and want to celebrate is Eucharyst, The Crucifixion, and other things connected with Jesus. Yes, money could be given out to homeless. However, did you think about florists? What about them? When we stop buying flowers from them, they will also become homeless. In this way we can finish off any group of people. E.g., one day all people decide not to use taxis - they can go on foot or drive their own cars. In result, all taxi-drivers will go on a dole. Unfortunately, here we come across another pagan custom - honouring one`s dead. It is really widespread in Poland. However, it is a price that Christianity had to pay in order to win the hearts and souls of old pagan Slavs. If Slavs had been forbidden to decorate the graves with flowers, the prophets and missionaries of the new religion would have had hard time in preSlavic Poland. all very nice like I say Bono but are christians not supposed to listen to God? Jeremiah 10:2 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. I personally think that, Jesus hated traditions and all the waste that was and is associated with it. of course nobody wants to see flower sellers or anybody else on the dole. But surely if the church did not waste so much money there would be no problem with homelessness or many of lifes social problems. I haven't really answered most of your comments yet but will have to do it later cos work calls. will get back to you  I |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 19:25:00 GMT 1
My reply all very nice like I say Bono but are christians not supposed to listen to God? Where did God forbid to decorate graves with flowers? I have the Bible in new English translation. This passage goes like this: "Do not follow the ways of other nations;
do not be disturbed by unusual sights in the sky,
even though other nations are terrified.
The religion of these people is worthless.
A tree is cut down in the forest;
it is carved by the tools of the woodworker,
and decorated with silver and gold.
It is fastened down with nails to keep it from falling over.
Such idols are scarecrows in a field of melons;
[...] Do not be afraid of them: they can cause you no harm,
and they can do you no good."It is obvious that what is meant here is paganism - the idolatrous religions of other nations who haven`t converted to true faith yet. Is it your own interpretation or can you quote the Bible? Jesus rejected some traditions and old ways of the Jews, that is why he was misunderstood. But he also kept others. And he wasn`t against "wasting" as you said. Do you remember how Mary took a bottle of expensive perfume and poured it on Jesus` feet, one of the disciples asked if it wasn`t better to sell this perfume for 300 silver coins? Jesus replied: Leave her alone! John, 12, 3. Yes, I agree, sometimes the wealth of the Church could be spent in a different, more pious way. I am looking forward to it. haha |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 19:25:51 GMT 1
You reply I have the Bible in new English translation. This passage goes like this: "Do not follow the ways of other nations;
do not be disturbed by unusual sights in the sky,
even though other nations are terrified.
The religion of these people is worthless.
A tree is cut down in the forest;
it is carved by the tools of the woodworker,
and decorated with silver and gold.
It is fastened down with nails to keep it from falling over.
Such idols are scarecrows in a field of melons;
[...] Do not be afraid of them: they can cause you no harm,
and they can do you no good." sounds like another Pagan custom, called Christmas to me. tahts when we decorate trees and put gold and silver on them. do christians do that? even ones that have converted to the true faith???if people wouldn't convert unless we as christians turned to pagan practices, then how come Jesus had so many people following him wothout doing those things. maybe it was because he spoke truth not lies. it's a fact that these days for every person who joins the church two leave!!! why is that? that is including the so called true faith, who bought all these pagan practices into the church in the first place:) Just My point it's Paganism God is speaking against so why do Christians do it year after year?? Aftyer God says don't do it?? just my interpretation He spent a lot of time shouting at the religious leaders then though didn't he??? Jesus wasn't misunderstood by mistakeit was because He spoke in parables and He never taught without Parables.. lets qoute the whole conversation here to get a complete picture shall we? John 12-3. then Mary took a pound of ointment, of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair. and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then said one of his diciples,Judas iscariot, simons son which should betray him. why was not this ointment sold for thre hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said not because he cared for the poor, BUT BECAUSE HE WAS A THIEF, and had the bag and bare what was put therein. Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. Joh 12:8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always. thats why Jesus said leave her alone because the ointment had been saved for that day, and Judas wanted the money for himself, bit like the modern day church:) maybe not the church of the true faith:) just my opinion:) your right here the church could do so much good if they did this. Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell all that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Glad your looking forward to it enjoy. ha ha |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 19:29:46 GMT 1
My reply sounds like another Pagan custom, called Christmas to me. tahts when we decorate trees and put gold and silver on them. But the passage from the Bible means idol figures made of wood. Besides, Christians put mock gold and silver on their Christmas trees. But yes, I can agree, the churches are full of golden ornaments which cost something. It could be spent in a better way. But tourists love this golden stuff - it looks great in photographs. Lookie here:  Jesus didn`t say anything new. There were other prophets before him. But Jesus cured a lot of people and it had a great impact on his followers - they started to believe that God spoke through Jesus, that he was indeed a God`s son if he could do such things. What you call pagan practices I prefer to see as tradition which is quite harmless. People leave the Church for different reasons than alleged pagan customs. They leave because they simply don`t need religion, the Church, God any more - they feel they can live on their own. Hmm, we don`t really know what God says to us. Unless we experience a revelation. You questioned the custom of buying flowers to decorate graves. You called it "waste" and added that the money could be spent in a better way on poor people. In the biblical story we see how Jesus allows the "waste" of expensive ointment. It is spent on himself instead of poor people. Forget that Judas was a thief, it really didn`t matter then. Jesus closed an eye to wasting 300 gold pieces because it refered to his person. Now, let`s consider those people who buy flowers and put them on graves of their dead family. Do they do it for selfish reasons of satisfying the dead??? No, there is a deeper meaning of this custom. After cleaning and decorating the grave/tomb, people start saying prayers. To God, to Jesus and to Holy Spirit. Through their prayers they are sort of in touch with God. If you say that putting flowers on graves is an old pagan custom, let it be so. But the way Christians adapted it to their needs, makes it an act of piety which can`t be treated by God as encroaching on biblical rules. Yes, the Church. But the Church is made of people. You, me and millions others. Do you expect that the Church will give up its earthly wealth before people do it first? Be careful, because advocating such solutions, one may ask you if you have already given to the poor everything what you had. hahaha |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 20:03:56 GMT 1
Now, I am ready to resume our discussion anew. this is exactly what makes me cringe, have you never read even one scripture that says do not store up treasure on earth?? true faiths pretty screwed there then isn't it?/ I read many fragments about it. But whose gold is it? Do you think priests store it for themselves? Or is it for the glory of God and Jesus? We already mentioned Jesus and how he closed an eye to the "waste" of expensive perfume on him by Maria. You nicely quoted Jesus` words: Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
Having such precedence, how do you know that the mock gold and flowers used to decorate today`s churches for heavenly glory are disliked by Jesus??? Yes, it is my interpretation, just like yours was that Jesus hated traditions. Did you not admit it was your own interpretation? So, if you have yours, let me have mine too. You can disagree with whatever I say, but don`t overlook that I just stated a fact, not my personal opinion on people needing no God. Besides, can there be false God at all? Poeple and gods are false. God is one and true, even if it is believed in by rascals. No, I haven`t had a revelation yet. Only souls of my dead relatives speak to me from time to time, but it`s not God yet. I am so sorry OK, you think that anointing Jesus wasn`t a waste of money. Why are you so inconsequent? When today`s people give jewels and flowers to Jesus, you see it as pagan traditions. Don`t people want to honour the One who gave his life for them? If they do, it means they need it. Yes, you clearly had it in mind when you wrote: sounds like another Pagan custom, called Christmas to me. tahts when we decorate trees and put gold and silver on them. do christians do that?Be careful, because advocating such solutions, one may ask you if you have already given to the poor everything what you had. hahaha answer, YES I HAVE , have you??? and I do mean everything, Bonobo.... ha ha lol Have you really? What about the computer on which you are writing this? You certainly haven`t sold it to the poor and used magic instead to write those posts? Everything means everything, just like you do mean. hahahaha |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 20:28:56 GMT 1
I agree, but there is also another reason people decorate graves. It is to honor the dead and the dignity of their bodies which will some day be resurrected as Christ's body was. that's a bit lame Bonobo!! In the heat of the discussion, you didn`t notice it was another person who wrote that post. hahahaha It`s OK, I don`t mind. Hmm, but you said before it is a waste and Christ doesn`t approve of it.... So, how is it at last? hahaha How do you know if it wasn`t carved by craftsmen for free, just to make a present to Jesus, honouring the One who gave his life for people? It seems to me that you are very quick in your judgments. Aren`t you afraid of committing a sin of being too hasty a judge? The Bible says directly: "Do not judge others, and God will not judge you. Do not condemn others , and God will not condemn you; forgive otehrs, and God will forgive you."That is very interesting, indeed. If what you write is true, I feel really honoured to meet such a person.  It seems you have reversed the proper proceedings. You demand me to prove that I am right. But it is you who question my opinion. Wouldn`t it be more fair if you started proving I was wrong?? Hey, that was a typical method used in court in totalitarian countries. The accused had to prove their innocence, otherwise they were convicted of uncomitted crimes. hahaha I did. hahahaha |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 21:14:51 GMT 1
I am still waiting for you to send me the scriture wher eyou say Jesus said nothing new???/ I will wait for you to answer me Biblically.. won't hold my breath though.. cos don't believe you can or you would already have done so.. you didn't answer one question of mine..Come on Bonobo you said you like to talk about the Bible!!! well I am waiting.. still waiting Bonobo for you to send me one scripture from any translation rthat says Jesus said nothing NEW???// Urged by your impatient implorations, I decided to answer you biblically. Jesus said nothing new. What did I mean by this? I meant that Jesus didn`t invent anything new. Everything had already been said and written before him. What, namely? Ten Commandments. Aren`t they the main guidance for Christians? Weren`t they supported by Jesus too, although he opposed Pharisees and their false interpretation of law? What did Jesus say exactly? Matthew, 5, 17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." OK, Jesus added something. His 11 commandment but it wasn`t really new, just a summary of the previous 10. Romans, 13, 8. The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery', 'Do not murder', 'Do not steal', 'Do not covet', and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbour as yourself. That`s it for a while. I would like to hear more from you, because I realise you may have another opinion. Try to convince me - I am open to arguments. Biblical ones. |
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 21:24:56 GMT 1
Quasimodo, let`s not miss this post from Jeanne. She is making a good point here. Hello jeanne, do you really believe that apeople need to do this tobe in touch with God??? by the way hello... Hello Quasimodo, No, I didn't say anything about people needing to do this to be in touch with God. This thread started as being about customs and traditions. I was simply stating one of the reasons people carry out this custom. The custom does, however, give glory to God by honoring the fact that he 'made man in his image and likeness' and that he has graced us by the resurrection of His Son and has promised the same resurrection to us. Jeanne |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 25, 2008 21:53:51 GMT 1
Quasimodo,
As humans, we live in a material world and receive information through our senses. From the beginning of time mankind has always used symbols, things made of and from the material world, to symbolize realities beyond this world. Symbols, and their accompanying customs and traditions, enrich and enhance our lives. To deny the need humans have for symbols demonstrates a lack of understanding of human nature.
Modern Easter symbols fall into this above category. By using the symbols (i.e. bunnies, eggs) Christians are not engaging in paganism, but using former pagan symbols to represent realities of their own faith. Pagans do not have a monopoly on elements of the material world. Christians can and do use them for their own purposes, changing the symbolism to fit their own beliefs. Specifically where Easter is concerned they represent new life and resurrection: both Christian themes.
Jeanne
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 25, 2008 22:13:56 GMT 1
Modern Easter symbols fall into this above category. By using the symbols (i.e. bunnies, eggs) Christians are not engaging in paganism, but using former pagan symbols to represent realities of their own faith. Pagans do not have a monopoly on elements of the material world. Christians can and do use them for their own purposes, changing the symbolism to fit their own beliefs. Specifically where Easter is concerned they represent new life and resurrection: both Christian themes. Jeanne I wanted to say something like this but my faulty tongue refused to cooperate. Now you did it much more beautifully. It is wonderful to be a native speaker! hahaha |
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Post by quasimodo on Mar 26, 2008 13:06:04 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo and jeanne. no I don't mind you moving the post:) I was really interested in you replies. I hope you will be patient with me and will wait a couple of weeks for my reply , I am going to Poland tomorrow and then to franc but I am really enjoying the discussion and I can see where you are coming from. and hope that I haven't upset you at all by voicing my opinions. just one thing Bonobo. the computor I am using is in the office at work:0 also I use the one were I live doesn't belong to me. take care folks looking forward to getting back to you take care..
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Post by Bonobo on Mar 26, 2008 15:19:43 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo and jeanne. no I don't mind you moving the post:) Good. I was anxious about your reaction. We are very patient people and we`ll wait even if it took us years or decades. I am enjoying it too as I can see that many of our views bear certain semblance. No, not at all. Well, the computer you are using needn`t belong to you but the fact that you go to work is something disturbing and it makes me cringe a little. hahahaha Wasn`t it said?:
Matthew, 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? BOM: Alma 31:37
6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (6:31-34)
"Take therefore no thought for the morrow"
Jesus says that we should not concern ourselves with material things, But Paul (1 Tim.5:8) says that anyone who behaves that way has "denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
Should Christians be concerned with material things?
6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.Take care too, of yourself and of all the poor and forgotten. |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 26, 2008 22:40:16 GMT 1
I wanted to say something like this but my faulty tongue refused to cooperate. Now you did it much more beautifully. It is wonderful to be a native speaker! hahaha Yes, but it is would be even more wonderful to speak both English and Polish! |
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Post by jeanne on Mar 26, 2008 22:43:45 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo and jeanne. no I don't mind you moving the post:) I was really interested in you replies. I hope you will be patient with me and will wait a couple of weeks for my reply , I am going to Poland tomorrow and then to franc but I am really enjoying the discussion and I can see where you are coming from. and hope that I haven't upset you at all by voicing my opinions. just one thing Bonobo. the computor I am using is in the office at work:0 also I use the one were I live doesn't belong to me. take care folks looking forward to getting back to you take care.. Quasimodo, I'm so jealous that you are going to Poland! Have a wonderful trip! We'll pick up the discussion where we left off when you get back. Jeanne |
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Post by Bonobo on Jan 19, 2013 12:09:38 GMT 1
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Post by Bonobo on Jan 22, 2013 11:53:15 GMT 1
During mass service last year, two crowns have fallen of God`s mother figure in a monastery in Jaros³aw. Local clergymen see it as a miracle, people too, so they are bringing gold and silver to replace the old crowns with new ones. The new crowns are one of elements to celebrate the 630 year history of the place. People and clergymen from the monastery have found a new interpretation - falling crowsn symbolise a serious warning for Poland and call for keeping up the faith and basic Christian principles.   |
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Hi Bonobo, the pictures are really good and it is nice that people do these sort of things, but the whole idea of Easter makes me cringe, firstly Easter is a totally Pagan festival, even the name Easter comes from the Greek Eostre, it is all about fertility, not meaning to have a go at anyones religieon here, but wasn't Jesus crucified at Passover?? the word Easter only appears in the Bible in one place in Acts 12. and that is a mistranslation of the Greek word Pashca, all 28 other times it is translated Pashca?? which means passover. and of course the flower sellers are out in force:) lots of money to be made, which could go to feed the homeless. I don't mean to be rude buuttt the dead don't appreciate the flowers, I am sure the hungry would appreciate the food or a bed for the night. Ok I know traditions are nice and all that but I am sure I read the words of Jesus somewhere in the Bible where he says, feed my sheep, not decorate churches and buy flowers for the dead. please don't be offended by my words they are just my opinion:) and I just love to talk about the Bible:) I would love to hear everyones opinion:) don't forget George Orwell said, there is no freedom unless Ideas and Beliefs can be questioned!! lol all 
It seems you have reversed the proper proceedings. You demand me to prove that I am right. But it is you who question my opinion. 
