|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 3, 2015 23:01:06 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 4, 2015 1:12:32 GMT 1
Dear Bo,
Maybe it has the same cause as in Hungary and Slovakia. There the governments say, these refugees are Muslims and we are a christian country. We want to stay a christian country and Muslims wouldn't feel at home here. The Slovaks only wanted to accept Christian refugees. I believe that there are a few reasons for the Central- and Eastern-European hesitation to accept refugees.
They saw and see the failed integration policies in Western-Europe and the problems West-European societies have with some elements within the Muslim migrant communities. Both in Central- and Eastern-Europe and Western Europe a lot of people are islamophobe, xenophobic, racist and discriminatory. It is a fact that Syrians, Iraqi's and Sudanese, Nigerians and Somalians are different in ethnicity, race, culture, mentality, religion and mentality.
Poland isn't used to large groups of Non-Western Muslims it hasn't got the experience Western-European nations have, since the latter have had experience with the MUslim guest workers that came in the late sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties. The second and Third generation of these ethnic Muslim migrant groups have become Dutch people, Moroccan Dutch, Turkish-Dutch or Iranian-Dutch.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 4, 2015 1:27:23 GMT 1
We saw the same kind of demonstrations in the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 4, 2015 1:39:16 GMT 1
The Slovaks only wanted to accept Christian refugees. Yes. But it is so funny because both Czech Republic and Slovakia are most atheist countries in this part of Europe. Yes, a lot of Poles work around Europe and they have contact with non-European migrants. |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 4, 2015 2:04:54 GMT 1
Yes, I heard about the secularism of the Czechs and Slovaks. I read somewhere that the Czech republic is one of the most secularised countries of Europe.
How are these contacts with non-European migrants. I know that some Poles must be working with them.
Here you hear a Dutch populist leader which was killed in 2001. He speaks about migrants in a very emotional way, because he felt responsible for the Dutch people, and was concerned about Islamization and considered the Netherlands a country that was shaped and build by christians through hard work for hundreds of years. Islam he called an import culture and religion.
And an elections ad of the present rightwing populist leader Geert Wilders:
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 4, 2015 2:06:10 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 4, 2015 12:22:11 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by jeanne on Oct 5, 2015 0:35:57 GMT 1
Bonobo and Pjotr,
I'm wondering what your thoughts are regarding this anti-Muslim migration issue in Europe, especially in Poland:
Does it have roots going back to when the Christian coalition led by the Poles stopped the Ottomans at Vienna in the 17th century and "saved Christian Europe?" Or does that not play into this issue... do you think this is based solely on modern differences between Muslims and Christians?
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 5, 2015 17:59:50 GMT 1
Dear Jeanne,
I believe that is a combination of both the historical fact that the Poles stopped the Ottomans at Vienna in the 17th century and therefor stopped the Islamization (via Turkish rule and influence) in that century and on modern differences between Muslims and European secular atheists, agnostic people and Christians today.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Oct 5, 2015 20:52:51 GMT 1
Bonobo and Pjotr, I'm wondering what your thoughts are regarding this anti-Muslim migration issue in Europe, especially in Poland: Does it have roots going back to when the Christian coalition led by the Poles stopped the Ottomans at Vienna in the 17th century and "saved Christian Europe?" Or does that not play into this issue... do you think this is based solely on modern differences between Muslims and Christians? No, stopping Turks at Vienna doesn`t have any influence on today`s attitudes, though some nationalists quote King Sobieski on their banners in the photos above. The main problem is that in result of WW2 Poland became a homogenous nation - only whites of Catholic religion. There was zero migration to Poland during communism. For over half century we have been simmering in purely Polish sauce. What is more, Poles tend to be conservative by nature and they don`t like novelties. It has been changing recently but very slowly. All this makes Poland a bit old-fashioned country, orbiting around its own Polish affairs, still sticking to its old customs. The massive influx of immigrants of different culture and religion might seriously stir this Polish sauce and break old traditions, that`s what Poles fear.  |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 10, 2015 23:08:36 GMT 1
Dear Bonobo, It would be good if Poland took in some Muslim refugees and integrated them into the Polish society like the Polish Muslim Tartars. These Polish Tartars are very integrated into Poland, speaking excellent Polish and having an European, Polish kind of Islam of their own, with their green wooden Mosques.  Tatar mosque at Kruszyniany, north east Poland.Poland has old ties with Turkey and the Arab world, it could use that Peoples Republic era experience and connections with the Arab world to understand what is going on. Poland is part of the EU and therfor should take and shelter some refugees. Poland will stay Roman-Catholic and more traditional than Western-European countries. I wonder how the refugee crisis will develop itself the coming times. There are tensions between refugees in Dutch and German refugee centers. For instance between Eritreans and Syrians, and between other ethnic groups. In the same time there is the threat of far right attacks on refugee centers and Muslim migrants in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, France and Scandinavia. Cheers, Pieter |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Oct 10, 2015 23:11:10 GMT 1
 Emergency refugee accommodation attacked in the Netherlands2015-10-10 13:21 Dutch Police officers stand guard outside the Snellerpoort sports hall in Woerden, after a group of masked men attacked the emergency shelter for refugees. (AFP)Amsterdam - Some 20 hooded people have attacked an emergency hostel for refugees in the central Dutch city of Woerden, a police spokesperson said on Saturday. They threw powerful fireworks and eggs at the building during the night and tried to force their way inside. It was the first such large-scale attack in the Netherlands, the spokesperson said, adding that police officers arrested 10 people. Some 150 refugees from Syria and Eritrea have been living in a sports hall in the city near Utrecht since Wednesday. The Dutch government criticized the attack, with the minister responsible for asylum issues, Klaas Dijkhoff, saying the attackers must be severely punished. " Refugees must be safe," he said. The refugees, many of whom are in families, were deeply shocked, Woerden Mayor Victor Molkenboer told Dutch television. " Most of them come from a war zone. Such loud explosions give them a traumatic experience," he said. Witnesses reported that the attackers were aged between 20 and 40. The sports hall was only intended as emergency accommodation for a week. Police said they have stepped up security there. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 13, 2015 22:06:58 GMT 1
The official stance of the Polish RCC is support for immigrants (but they should be Christian). Here, an archbishop visits a Syrian man who was beaten in the street by hooligans as a "Muslim alien" although he is Christian.   |
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 13, 2015 22:29:41 GMT 1
Sometimes even teachers join the witchhunt. Very deplorable, indeed..  : Polish science teacher apologises over 'tasteless' Syrian refugee assignment
13.11.2015 11:48
A physics teacher at a secondary school in Białystok, north eastern Poland, has issued an apology after complaints were made about an assignment that made light of Syrian refugees drowning in the Mediterranean.
Teacher Grzegorz Nowik, who leads a physics class with 14-year-olds, had set his pupils the following test:
“4 refugees from Syria are trying to sail to Greece on a raft which is 1m x 2m x 20cm and 800kg/m2. Calculate how many refugees need to be pushed off the raft in order for them to reach their destination, if each of them weighs 60kg.”
One of the teenagers' parents found out about the test and immediately informed school authorities.
Deputy Director Elżbieta Stasiewicz claims that the teacher “apologized and expressed remorse,” and that as a result, no disciplinary measures have been taken, although he has been given a warning.
Nowik apparently justified his actions by arguing that more conventional tests can be “boring” for teenagers and that he had simply wanted to liven up their studies.
However, Anna Mierzyńska from the local anti-racism organisation Normalny Białystok (Normal Białystok) has claimed that the incident represents the tip of the iceberg.
“This situation is a symptom of a much broader situation which we have across the entire country,” she said.
“If a lot of famous people, politicians, authorities, are able to speak about refugees in a hateful manner, then it's no surprise that a teacher speaks in a such a way.”- See more at: www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/228708,Polish-science-teacher-apologises-over-tasteless-Syrian-refugee-assignment#sthash.yW0kTUzT.dpuf |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 13, 2015 23:20:36 GMT 1
It is sad that this had to happen to that Syrian christian man. This was an attack with ethnic, xenophobic, islamophobe and racists motives. He looks Middle-easter Arabic. But it is not exemplary for Poland per se, because all over Europe, and in the USA, Australia and other countries you have xenophobia and racist attacks on people.
In Germany, the Netherlands, France, Italy, Greece, Hungary, the Czech Republic and other countries unfortunately the same happende with foreign immigrant people, like this man in Poland. In Velp, a small town in the Netherlands, xenophobe Dutch men fire bombed a Polish migrant house. Two Slovak people were badly burnt and will suffer for the rest of their lives due to the attack of these Dutch racist thugs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 13, 2015 23:33:21 GMT 1
It is sad that this had to happen to that Syrian christian man. This was an attack with ethnic, xenophobic, islamophobe and racists motives. He looks Middle-easter Arabic. But it is not exemplary for Poland per se, because all over Europe, and in the USA, Australia and other countries you have xenophobia and racist attacks on people. In Germany, the Netherlands, France, Italy, Greece, Hungary, the Czech Republic and other countries unfortunately the same happende with foreign immigrant people, like this man in Poland. In Velp, a small town in the Netherlands, xenophobe Dutch men fire bombed a Polish migrant house. Two Slovak people were badly burnt and will suffer for the rest of their lives due to the attack of these Dutch racist thugs. Yes, racists are everywhere, and on both sides. Poles, when they are critisised for their xenophobic opinions, answer they try to avoid such drastic Islam-based attacks in Poland as has just happened in France, with over 60 casualties already and many more expected: Paris shooting: Several killed and injured after 'Kalashnikov and grenade attacks' across French capital
Many people killed after several shootings and explosions across central Paris - follow live updates
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995227/Paris-shooting-Many-feared-dead-live.html |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 14, 2015 16:25:11 GMT 1
Dear Bo,
I understand the feelings, emotions and opinions of these Poles. They don't want the problems we have in our multi-cultural societies in Western-Europe. But Poles must understand that Poland does not have the heritage of colonies in the Muslim world like France, Great-Britain and the Netherlands have. France has a historical connection to Northern-Africa, the Middle-east and Black African muslim nations. France is an old ally of Great-Britain and the USA.
And France has one of the largest Muslim communities in Europe with a lot of Algerians, Tunesians and Moroccans from Northern-Africa (the former French colonies). France has the heritage of the bloody and vicious Algerian War, also known as the Algerian War of Independence or the Algerian Revolution
The Algerian War, also known as the Algerian War of Independence or the Algerian Revolution (1 November 1954 – 19 March 1962), and tensions in the French society as a result of that in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties during the brutal civil war in Algeria (26 December 1991 – 8 February 2002), with the terrorist attacks in Paris by GIA (the Armed Islamic Group). Between 1992 and 1998, the GIA conducted a violent campaign of civilian massacres, sometimes wiping out entire villages in its area of operation, (notably the Bentalha and Rais). It attacked and killed other Islamists that left the GIA or attempted to negotiate with the government. It also targeted foreign civilians living in Algeria, killing more than 100 expatriate men and women in the country. The group established a presence outside Algeria, in France, Belgium, Britain, Italy and the United States, and launched terror attacks in France in late 1994.
The Islamists could be called racist based on ethnic, religious and cultural differentiation. By killing anyone who does not belongs to, submits to or follows the same branch of Islam as they do, the Salafist or Wahabi version of Sunni Islam coming from Saoudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab states.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 14, 2015 16:33:27 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 14, 2015 18:42:04 GMT 1
Dear Bo, I understand the feelings, emotions and opinions of these Poles. They don't want the problems we have in our multi-cultural societies in Western-Europe. But Poles must understand that Poland does not have the heritage of colonies in the Muslim world like France, Great-Britain and the Netherlands have. France has a historical connection to Northern-Africa, the Middle-east and Black African muslim nations. France is an old ally of Great-Britain and the USA. Pieter Yes, and that is the argument frequently used by Poles in discussions - we didn`t have colonies so why should we host refugees? Let the ex-colonial countries bother about them. Poland has nothing to do with it. I am sure the new PiS government will do their best to slow down or even block the transfer of refugees to Poland, whose quotas were negotiated some time ago by the European Union. |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 15, 2015 1:09:40 GMT 1
It is not a question about colonies, slavery, imperialism, crussades and exploitation in the past or not it is about where we are as humanity right now. In Syria cities, towns, villages and hamlets are wiped out, bombed and shelled, destroyed on a massive scale. Babies, toddler, preschoolers, little children, children, teenagers, young adults, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, parents, pupils and students are being killed, tortured, and maimed by this vicious civil war. Millions of Syrians fled out of Syria and millions are internally displaced inside Syria. Both the terror of the regime with their barrel bombs, tank shelling of neighborhoods, artillery fire and government snipers, and the terror of Daesh (Islamic State or ISIL) and the Al Nusra Front (Al Qaida affiliate) are terrible. There is no safe place there, and the situation in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey aren't preferable either. The Lebanese, Jordanians and Turks are not very fond of Syrians and the Syrians live under difficult circumstances in these countries. Fact is that these countries have had their limit of Syrian refugees. Their camps are full, their hotels are full, they have not enough houses nor new refugee centers.
Europe has an obligation to help real refugees, and the best option would be if the refugees would be spread over Europe so that all European countries can coop with sheltering, and taking care of these refugees. Now the masses go to Germany and Sweden. These countries can't handle it anymore. We don't want tensions at our borders with Germany in the future. There should be some solidarity in Europe between the member states of the European Union and there should be pressure on all Muslim nations of the world to also take in Syrian refugees. The USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand should also take their responsibility. If the refugees are spread over all these nations the refugee crisis will be manageable.
Poland should host refugees out of solidarity, compassion, empathy, christian charity, humanity, fraternity, love for fellow human beings in need and because Poland has experienced itself war, destruction, mass murder (genocide), and the killing of women, children, teenagers, fathers and mothers, and elderly people on a large scale. Because Poland experienced the horrors of the First World War and the Second World War it should help the Syrians. Some elements of the Syrian civil war are similar to the Warsaw Uprising or the Getto Uprising.
During the Syrian Civil War, Yarmouk camp became the scene of intense fighting in 2012 between the Free Syrian Army and the PFLP-GC supported by Syrian Army government forces. The camp then was consequently taken over by various factions and was deprived of supplies, resulting in hunger, diseases and a high death rate, which caused many to leave.
If you look at the terrible circumstances the Palestinians lived and live in the Yarmuk refugee camp, you understand why Poland should host refugees too.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 15, 2015 1:30:40 GMT 1
Poland should host refugees out of solidarity, compassion, empathy, christian charity, humanity, fraternity, love for fellow human beings in need and because Poland has experienced itself war, destruction, mass murder (genocide), and the killing of women, children, teenagers, fathers and mothers, and elderly people on a large scale. Because Poland experienced the horrors of the First World War and the Second World War it should help the Syrians. Some elements of the Syrian civil war are similar to the Warsaw Uprising or the Getto Uprising. Cheers, Pieter Yes, I agree with it. That is my thinking and feeling too. However, average Poles don`t care about it when they watch the news from France. Besides, it is impossible to absorb all those people willing to live in cosy Europe. In this way millions of immigrants will arrive and cause huge problems. |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 15, 2015 20:36:13 GMT 1
I am glad you agree with me.
I am afraid that maybe the average European don't care about it either when they watch the news from France. Thy are compassionate with the French victims, because they are Europeans like them. But they are less compassionate with the refugees, because they are non-European, Asian (Middle-Eastern) and Muslim. Many of them unfortunately don't see the difference between these Refugees and the Islamist terrorists.
We can't absorb all those people into Europe. You are right. We have to see the difference between real war refugees and economical refugees via a selection proces. So, no Refugees from Pakistan, Bangladesh and North-Africa. But we should help the Syrians in my opinion.
Cheers,
Pieter
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 15, 2015 21:04:02 GMT 1
We can't absorb all those people into Europe. You are right. We have to see the difference between real war refugees and economical refugees via a selection proces. So, no Refugees from Pakistan, Bangladesh and North-Africa. But we should help the Syrians in my opinion. Cheers, Pieter Unfortunately, Pete, this is only idealistic theory. The brutal practice is, and Germans have just found out about it, that once immigrants reach their destination which is a rich democratic country in Europe, they settle for good and it is almost impossible to get rid of them. Talking about selection - it should take place not in the heart of Europe, but in its outskirts. Allowing the situation when immigrants cross several borders, breaking all EU rules (Shengen!), is a scandal. Hungary was heavily criticised for building the wall on the border, yet see how the biggest democracy in the world has tried to solve the problem with immigrants:   |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 16, 2015 7:24:24 GMT 1
Yes and no Bonobo. asylum rules and thus legislation is tough and selective in the Netherlands and other countries in Europe. Germany and Sweden are less strict and faced and face the consequences of that. You are right however that once these refugees and immigrants settle they stay. Only a few return to their country of origin once the conflict is stopped over there and safety and security return.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 18, 2015 21:44:35 GMT 1
Yes and no Bonobo. asylum rules and thus legislation is tough and selective in the Netherlands and other countries in Europe. How many immigrants who hadn`t been granted asylum have been deported from Holland so far? Are there any statistics on it? |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 19, 2015 0:15:16 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Nov 19, 2015 21:42:22 GMT 1
Wow, so it is happening, indeed. However, sending back two asylum seekers per year means the whole procedure will take centuries, taking into consideration the current and future influx of refugees. |
|
|
|
Post by pjotr on Nov 20, 2015 1:28:40 GMT 1
Dear Bo, I believe that the procedure, the action (of police and customs officers and military police -Marechaussee- who assist the civilian police) and the transport back to the countries or regions of heritage take place in silence. It will not go gentle, and sometimes force is used. I know that the Dutch police and the Royal Netherlands Marechaussee arrest illegal migrants and refugees and puts them on planes and often accompany them back to their countries of heritage. www.rnw.org/archive/government-gets-tougher-illegal-immigrantsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_MarechausseeThis is a detention center nex to Schiphol airport. These people were or will be deported out of the Netherlands.Cheers, Pieter |
|
Eric
Just born
Posts: 6 
|
Post by Eric on Nov 25, 2015 12:27:51 GMT 1
There is nothing glamourous or pretty about xenophobia. These people are afraid of something, but it's probably more willful ignorance than it is the fear of terrorism. Poland has been a country with very few non-Poles for an incredibly long time, and now the EU is ordering Poland to open its doors to outsiders... very different outsiders.
There are two reactions Poles could make: welcome people fleeing from terrible hardship with open arms and support, or shun them specifically because they are different. Sadly, these Poles are making the choice to exclude rather than include, and I think that's very sad.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonobo on Dec 4, 2015 23:54:10 GMT 1
There is nothing glamourous or pretty about xenophobia. These people are afraid of something, but it's probably more willful ignorance than it is the fear of terrorism. Poland has been a country with very few non-Poles for an incredibly long time, and now the EU is ordering Poland to open its doors to outsiders... very different outsiders. There are two reactions Poles could make: welcome people fleeing from terrible hardship with open arms and support, or shun them specifically because they are different. Sadly, these Poles are making the choice to exclude rather than include, and I think that's very sad. Yes, but it cannot be helped right now. The excluding attitude towards very different outsiders is prevalent and it is going to take years, if not decades, to change it. However, not all outsiders are excluded. There are a lot of Ukrainians or Asian people in Poland. |
|
Major cities witnessed demonstrations against refugees, organised by nationalist organisations. 
