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Post by Bonobo on Apr 30, 2008 18:45:29 GMT 1
Two Loco`s statements provoked me to start two threads. This one is about guns. personally, restricting anyone's rights seems un-american to me Loco, what do you think about the right of Americans to carry guns or at least to have them at home. Is it really worth it? Why should average people own guns? To protect themselves, of course. Against who or what? Against rascals. But isn`t it so that rascals are always better armed, trained and faster when it comes to using guns? Students were not able to defend themselves when their crazy mate went on a shooting spree at the American uni last year. How many were killed? 32. Citizens cherish illusions that guns will protect them. But when it comes to real usage, they always lose. I am happy that guns are restricted in Poland. I imagine those shootings in streets, schools, homes. There are many brawls and feuds in Poland which end with fighting. Yes, sometimes people get killed, mostly with a knife. But there would be much more victims if guns were available. |
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Post by valpomike on Apr 30, 2008 23:38:47 GMT 1
If the Polish people had guns in there home, when WW 2 started, they could have done better for them selfs, I think.
I own guns, and will not give them up. In case we have a problem, with a war here, or civil unruly, or something like it, I want my guns. I am trained on how to use them. I was a member of the N.R.A. for many years, and some as a instructor.
I got BB guns for my grandson's when they turned three years old, and with me, or there dad we have target practice often.
Teach you son to hunt, so that some day you won't have to hunt for him.
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Post by Bonobo on Apr 30, 2008 23:50:10 GMT 1
If the Polish people had guns in there home, when WW 2 started, they could have done better for them selfs, I think. Hmm, guns against tanks and planes? I am afraid the result would be pretty much the same. Have you ever shot at someone? With what results? What is NRA? Oh, I see. American kids grow up with guns under their pillows. What is BB? I wouldn`t like my son to hunt. I dislike the idea of killing animals for fun. I killed a few animals in my life and always felt great pity. |
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Post by Bonobo on May 1, 2008 0:11:15 GMT 1
I have just checked the news portal and that`s what I found: Drunk man shot at people in Warsaw with his hunting rifle. One passer-by landed in hospital with a serious head injury. www.tvn24.pl/-1,1548092,wiadomosc.html  I suppose there would be more cases like that if guns were more popular. |
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Post by locopolaco on May 1, 2008 2:39:46 GMT 1
NRA - National Rifle Association... definitely have a look.  it will be a shocker. hehe BB - is a little lead (now steel) pellet that this kind of gun shoots. most are air pumped - like a pump shotgun images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=BB+pellets&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2hmmm.. ok, there are some out there that hunt for fun but the majority hunts for food. i don't know one hunter that hunts for the rack or the pelt.. all hunt for food that they eat. the post about the warsaw shooting is a perfect example that gun restrictions/laws don't really work as they only work on those who actually obey them. all crime is committed by people who obviously don't even consider laws so more laws will have 0 effect on them the criminals. worth what? i like my guns and use them in a responsible manner. will not give them up. there are guns in poland though. there are hunters and all that too. is there really that much difference? PL's gun ownership per capita is low so is the crime with them when compared to the whole population but if you'd look at the data comparing just owners and just gun violence in poland i bet the picture wouldn't be much different then it is in the US. almost all gun crimes in the US are committed with illegal weapons which were basically outside the law already. i bet the warsaw story is about the same. the students in all the different school/uni shootings were all unarmed as that is the policy of most schools. now there is a push for guns on campuses. and i don't think that's the case that defenders always lose. it's actually the other way around. i sure hear more of those anyway. |
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Post by jkustelski on May 1, 2008 3:09:37 GMT 1
Here in Texas we have concealed carry laws.
In other words, if you are certified, you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Many would be car-jackers, robbers, etc have gone by the wayside because of this law and it seems to have discouraged a lot of these activities.
I am a big proponent of the right to bear arms, but I don't personally own a gun, nor do I hunt- but that's a personal choice.
Jim
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Post by valpomike on May 1, 2008 16:11:03 GMT 1
It is not guns against planes, they are often on the ground also. And some guns can shoot down a plane.
Guns are good, with control, and training.
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Post by valpomike on May 3, 2008 1:09:21 GMT 1
Remember, GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.
What do you want to defend yourself, if someone breaks into you home, and puts your family in danger.
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Post by locopolaco on May 3, 2008 1:24:36 GMT 1
so, obviously some people shouldn't have them, right? how do you distinguish them from the ones that are ok with guns?
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Post by Bonobo on May 3, 2008 20:51:17 GMT 1
NRA - National Rifle Association... definitely have a look. it will be a shocker. hehe As far as I remember, it is the main advocate of private gun ownership in the USA. In Polish - wiatrówka - wind blower. It is a real surprise. I know that some guys hunt/poach for food in Poland but they do it out of poverty. They are too poor to buy meat in the store. I would never suppose that Americans are so poor they have to hunt. OK, I imagine those who live in the mountains or forest far from civilisation can hunt for food.... The guy wasn`t a criminal. He was a legal hunter who drank too much and decided to have shooting fun. Can you imagine, with the widespread access to guns, more people having fun in this way??? I can and I certainly wouldn`t like it. Guns are very comfortable for fun purposes because they can be used at a distance. Worth having a few great tragedies a year when 30 people are killed by a madman who was allowed to buy a gun in the store like a lollipop. And many single tragedies in which a huband kills his wife returning home by night because he takes her for a burglar. Or a child finds father`s gun and kills his.her younger sibling during play. Do you carry them on you wherever you go? Will you be able to defend yourself and your family, always? Even when you go to the museum, for example? You know, madmen can attack anywhere... Even when the law orders you to give them up one day? Yes, there is much difference. Hunters are quite responsible, sane people, I know a few , they are dentists and doctors from a small town near Krakow, I teach their children. Of course there happen black sheep too, like in the news, but they are rare. I don`t know the statistics, but I do need it to agree with you. Killings with a gun are really rare in Poland. Can you imagine students with guns? It is really getting crazy.... Isn`t it better to restrict all guns? Well, you live in the USA and have first hand info. If that`s the case as you say, I must believe you. But I would like more people corroborate this opinion.  |
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Post by Bonobo on May 3, 2008 20:55:47 GMT 1
Here in Texas we have concealed carry laws. In other words, if you are certified, you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Many would be car-jackers, robbers, etc have gone by the wayside because of this law and it seems to have discouraged a lot of these activities. So you corroborate Loco`s opinion that guns function as a good deterent? Do you agree that guns do more good by deterring or actually defending people than evil, when madmen go on shooting sprees or people mishandle them and kill their relatives, for example? Why don`t you have a gun if you support their ownership? |
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Post by Bonobo on May 3, 2008 21:05:01 GMT 1
Remember, GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. What do you want to defend yourself, if someone breaks into you home, and puts your family in danger. If it`s a determined professional bandit, I won`t have time to get my gun. The bandit will be quicker. If it is some petty criminal, I can use whatever non shooting stuff comes in my hand (teaser, gas spray) or even bare hands. I can also bite him ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Bonobo on May 3, 2008 21:06:08 GMT 1
so, obviously some people shouldn't have them, right? how do you distinguish them from the ones that are ok with guns? Sending them to a consultant first. |
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Post by locopolaco on May 3, 2008 22:19:59 GMT 1
NRA - National Rifle Association... definitely have a look. it will be a shocker. hehe As far as I remember, it is the main advocate of private gun ownership in the USA. In Polish - wiatrówka - wind blower. It is a real surprise. I know that some guys hunt/poach for food in Poland but they do it out of poverty. They are too poor to buy meat in the store. I would never suppose that Americans are so poor they have to hunt. OK, I imagine those who live in the mountains or forest far from civilisation can hunt for food.... The guy wasn`t a criminal. He was a legal hunter who drank too much and decided to have shooting fun. Can you imagine, with the widespread access to guns, more people having fun in this way??? I can and I certainly wouldn`t like it. Guns are very comfortable for fun purposes because they can be used at a distance. Worth having a few great tragedies a year when 30 people are killed by a madman who was allowed to buy a gun in the store like a lollipop. And many single tragedies in which a huband kills his wife returning home by night because he takes her for a burglar. Or a child finds father`s gun and kills his.her younger sibling during play. Do you carry them on you wherever you go? Will you be able to defend yourself and your family, always? Even when you go to the museum, for example? You know, madmen can attack anywhere... Even when the law orders you to give them up one day? Yes, there is much difference. Hunters are quite responsible, sane people, I know a few , they are dentists and doctors from a small town near Krakow, I teach their children. Of course there happen black sheep too, like in the news, but they are rare. I don`t know the statistics, but I do need it to agree with you. Killings with a gun are really rare in Poland. Can you imagine students with guns? It is really getting crazy.... Isn`t it better to restrict all guns? Well, you live in the USA and have first hand info. If that`s the case as you say, I must believe you. But I would like more people corroborate this opinion. yeah, wiatrowka although i recall those having little dart not a ball. hunting doesn't have to be out of necessity. many just prefer wild game and it is cheap. 30++/300mill.. well, yeah. no, i don't carry my hand gun that much. i do when i travel though. the gov can order but that doesn't mean i have to comply.  most hunters are responsible owners/users. some poaching happens here too. students w/ guns: well, not all that long ago many students, me too, carried pocket knives.. no one got stabbed. out in the country many boys would have their guns in their trucks.. no one got shot.. society has changed.. seems there are more nutcases out there. i can't help that but that doesn't mean i should give up my guns because others can't handle them. |
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Post by locopolaco on May 3, 2008 22:20:52 GMT 1
so, obviously some people shouldn't have them, right? how do you distinguish them from the ones that are ok with guns? Sending them to a consultant first. lol.. that's gonna work.  that's almost gun registration and that will not fly here. |
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Post by jkustelski on May 4, 2008 15:54:09 GMT 1
Here in Texas we have concealed carry laws. In other words, if you are certified, you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Many would be car-jackers, robbers, etc have gone by the wayside because of this law and it seems to have discouraged a lot of these activities. So you corroborate Loco`s opinion that guns function as a good deterent? Do you agree that guns do more good by deterring or actually defending people than evil, when madmen go on shooting sprees or people mishandle them and kill their relatives, for example? "Yes, I believe it is a citizens right to be able to defend themselves against an enemy, foreign or domestic. The second ammendment of the constitution is federal, many states have their own laws which address this issue and it is and always will be a subject of debate. Since it is the law in my state to be able to defend myself, I support the law. If it becomes illegal, I will follow the law but will still believe it is my right." Why don`t you have a gun if you support their ownership? "When I was younger, I was in the Military and it was part of my military training. In my late 20's and into my thirties I used to collect guns and was an avid marksman and hunter. What changed? There is not one particular reason I suppose but several. As I get older I don't see the need as much to own a gun to defend myself and I don't believe in what most people call 'hunting'. I've become more of a conservationalist in this respect. The main reason though is all the violence and easy access to guns. If they take them away from everyone though will this solve the problem? I don't think so, if they do that then only criminals and the police will have guns and I would be left without the choice to defend myself if I wanted to. So in that respect I still support the option to keep a gun if I wanted one..." Jim |
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Post by valpomike on May 14, 2008 17:16:36 GMT 1
To buy a gun you must undergo a background check that takes time, and to carry a gun, you must again undergo a longer, more involved check.
If someone is breaking into my home, I want to be able to arm myself to save myself and family from pain.
Again, if Poland had guns, the war could have taken a different look. Even if the same, they could have tried.
Gun don't kill people, people kill people. They can use anything, so you could use a gun to stop them.
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Post by Bonobo on May 14, 2008 20:33:03 GMT 1
To buy a gun you must undergo a background check that takes time, and to carry a gun, you must again undergo a longer, more involved check. That`s good. But is it so in all states? Aren`t there states where you just enter an arms store and leave with a nice gun? Besides, what consequences might one suffer if they carry their gun in public places? Yes, it is some reason. |
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
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Post by gigi on May 16, 2008 4:01:52 GMT 1
A friend of mine used to teach at a local inner city high school. One day, a 12 year old boy was shot and killed in a drive-by shooting near the school. The shooter was in a car filled with local gang members.
The incident was devastating to the victim's family as well as to the other children who witnessed the shooting. The shooter was caught, and the only remorse he showed was that he had killed the wrong kid. Apparently the 12 year old had an older brother who was a member of a rival gang, and the 12 year old had been mistaken for the 14 year old and "taken out".
You have all made good points both for and against gun ownership. But what about the guns that find their way legally or illegally into the hands of children? An accidental death due to a child finding and firing an adult's gun is horrible enough, but there are children purposely killing other children. Would tougher penalties/punishments help? Maybe, but they are reactive. How do we keep kids from getting their hands on those guns in the first place???
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Post by valpomike on May 16, 2008 23:24:49 GMT 1
Hi,
Where, in what state or place did this shooting take place? Was it in Poland, or here in the states?
Chicago, has a law, that you can't own a gun, and still have shootings all the time.
When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
I will keep mine, until they take it from my dead hands.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by Bonobo on May 18, 2008 22:00:54 GMT 1
Hi, Where, in what state or place did this shooting take place? Was it in Poland, or here in the states? It couldn`t be Poland. There are teenage gangs here, but they aren`t armed with guns.... Actually, I have never heard of a teenager committing an armed crime.... Can`t own at all or only after a registration?? Yes, it is a problem, but if they impose harsh penalties for illegal possession of guns? E.g., 10 years? Because of your job, you will be always allowed to keep your gun, I suppose. |
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Post by Bonobo on May 18, 2008 22:04:50 GMT 1
But what about the guns that find their way legally or illegally into the hands of children? An accidental death due to a child finding and firing an adult's gun is horrible enough, I can read about such shooting accidents once a year, so it`s pretty rare in Poland. How common are they in America? I am asking because that`s one of my arguments. How do parents feel after their child gets injured or killed because finds and fires daddy`s gun?? |
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
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Post by gigi on May 19, 2008 20:51:14 GMT 1
I can read about such shooting accidents once a year, so it`s pretty rare in Poland. How common are they in America? I am asking because that`s one of my arguments. Per Common Sense about Kids and Guns:The CDC's (Center for Disease Control) most recent statistics are for 2005. Their annual total shows that in 2005 there were 173 children aged 0-19 who were killed in a firearm-related accident. That same year, there were 16,298 children injured by a firearm. An additional 14,052 were injured from BB or pellet guns. Or mommy's gun, or grandpa's gun, or a neighbor's parents' gun... I would guess that grief and guilt would put a huge strain on the family, possibly destroying it. |
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Post by locopolaco on May 19, 2008 23:57:57 GMT 1
no carry in Cook County - Chicago. i am pretty sure you can own one but it has to be in your house. there is no such thing as gun registry although FBI/ATF do keep track of them somewhat but there are ways around that.
tough sentencing doesn't seem to deter anything in the USA.
seems like irresponsible use/ownership of guns which i have no idea how to prevent. overall, like the CDC numbers point out, death of minors by guns is pretty low.
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Post by Bonobo on May 20, 2008 21:52:05 GMT 1
no carry in Cook County - Chicago. What are penalties after finding one on you? Yes, a traditional dilemma, also here, in Poland. It was one of the main arguments against the death penalty. Hmm, low with deaths, but those 16000 minors injured by firearm sound serious. |
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Post by Bonobo on Aug 3, 2008 17:37:53 GMT 1
www.tvn24.pl/-1,1559611,0,1,z-dachu-sklepu-strzelal-do-przechodniow,wiadomosc.html A drunk man was shooting at people with an airgun in a Silesian town. He climbed the roof of a local grocer`s and shot two people. He was arrested and now faces a trial for the crime punishable by 3 years` imprisonment.
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Post by Bonobo on Nov 12, 2008 19:11:19 GMT 1
When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Teach you son to hunt some day, so some day, you don't have to hunt for him. Mike But you can become hunted yourself. www.smh.com.au/news/world/eightyearold-shoots-his-father-dead/2008/11/10/1226165420614.html
It's a crime that police officers in a small eastern Arizona community in the US can hardly fathom yet have to deal with: an eight-year-old has been charged with the fatal shootings of his father and another man.
"Who would think an eight-year-old kid could kill two adults?" St Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said. |
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gigi
Kindergarten kid
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Post by gigi on Nov 12, 2008 19:42:28 GMT 1
When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Teach you son to hunt some day, so some day, you don't have to hunt for him. Mike But you can become hunted yourself. www.smh.com.au/news/world/eightyearold-shoots-his-father-dead/2008/11/10/1226165420614.html
It's a crime that police officers in a small eastern Arizona community in the US can hardly fathom yet have to deal with: an eight-year-old has been charged with the fatal shootings of his father and another man.
"Who would think an eight-year-old kid could kill two adults?" St Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said.This story raises a lot of questions. Notice that this doesn't appear to be an accident, as he is being charged with premeditated murder. Why? Speculation is that he was being abused, which as heinous as that would be doesn't justify murder. The motive will most likely be revealed soon enough. In the meantime, let's ponder this: Why on earth was an eight year-old boy able to get his hands on a loaded gun???  |
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Post by Bonobo on Nov 12, 2008 19:51:30 GMT 1
In the meantime, let's ponder this: Why on earth was an eight year-old boy able to get his hands on a loaded gun??? I read about it somewhere else: his father had been teaching the boy to hunt. |
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Post by valpomike on Nov 13, 2008 4:07:47 GMT 1
The boy, even his being young, could have killed them other ways, like drive over them in the car, and many other ways. I guess the father was not done teaching him gun safety.
Mike
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personally, restricting anyone's rights seems un-american to me
it will be a shocker. hehe
